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emptiness creates illusion?
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"Truth" = cause & effect
But you are asking "why is truth truth?"
But why there is "thinking" at the first place...
@zen_world Part of the problem here is you're misunderstanding Emptiness as nihilism. There can be no emptiness without "something" to be empty of. Emptiness in a void of nothingness makes no sense.
You sound so lost in philosophy
Imagine believing Daniel Ingram is fully enlightened
:orange:
How come there are cause and effects? What is the first cause...
What bothers me is this: There should be nothing - so nihilism should be the ultimate truth- but there are something because we experience it - call it illusion or delusion.
and why is that?
If ignorance was a first cause, then samsara would have a definable beginning in which 'it all started'. There is no such beginning... it is simply a interdependent process rolling on without a beginning or origin point.
But it is true that suffering does have a fundamental cause/condition which is ignorance (tho ignorance itself is interdependent originated)
Such questions are irrelevent in Buddhism
Buddha was concerned with WHY there is suffering
If you are not interested in WHY there is suffering, there is no reason to become a monk (unless you become a Tibetan monk and spend your day debating)
Ignorance is the first cause of suffering
Remove ignorance and all of the other causes & conditions for suffering end
All these years of reading and you do not realise that. oh dear
:-/
there is something we are all missing...something really fundemantal...
What I mean by first cause is something that is existing without cause, and out of which, there is a starting point that the rest of manifestation arises. In other words, the first cause is God.
Since nothing - including ignorance - exists without cause, (ignorance itself is interdependently originated), and there is no starting point of samsara, there is no first cause, only a process of infinite regress without beginning and a first origin-point.
This is not denying that ignorance is the fundamental cause/condition for suffering. (A fundamental cause/condition need not be a creator or first cause)
As I said, you are asking the wrong questions
Buddhist questions are "why is there suffering?"
Like I said if you find me one question that has NO ANSWER, I will agree with you.
"When will I die?" is a question with an answer - but I do not know the answer...
Edgar Cayce for instance knew his death and Buddha knew when he will die.
So ask me a question that has NO ANSWER?
The suttas state the origin of ignorance is the asava and the origin of the asava is ignorance
Ignorance is one of the asava
Just circular
It seems you are mostly concerned with philosophy
Your view means there can be no end of suffering because no original cause can be found
What you are saying makes 0% sense, just like Nargajuana makes 0% sense
Let me repeat: you are asserting no end of suffering can be found
:orange:
Sorry to disappoint you.
Buddha said the cause of faith is suffering.
The right motivation is to end suffering.
Your question: "Where do the elements come from?" is the same as the monk who asked the Buddha: "Where do the elements cease without remainder?"
The Buddha answered: "This question is inappropriate".
I do suffer too...with this question...
Nibbana is void of cause, Nibbana is not dependently originated, ignorance is the first cause of suffering
I have read enough Nagajuna to understand his theories are just intellectual
In spiritual experience, effects do not become "causes"
In spiritual experience, attachment is not the cause of craving just because for craving to be a cause attachment must exist
So please do not lie about me not having read Nargajuana
Please wash out your mouth with soap and water
:sawed:
you're interpreting the lack of an answer as meaninglessness. that is your projection. it is neither meaningless nor meaningful.
if you cannot find your suffering and place it in my hands then you cannot say that you are suffering. where is your suffering? if you cannot answer that question then that means there is neither suffering nor not suffering. there just is what is. and if that lack of answer causes more suffering then find your suffering. where is it? what is the cause?
you won't find your answer in a concept. i promise you.
If ignorance was a first cause, then ignorance would have arisen without cause, which is impossible.
Not really. As right view is necessary for proper practice, it is important for right view to be discussed. If there is no proper view of dependent origination, then even if we meditate diligently, we might not realise what the Buddha realised. Who said that?
There is no original cause, there is no beginning, and origin-point of samsara.
But there can be an end. It makes perfect sense actually. Never said that!
I said no origin and beginning to samsara can be found, which is what Buddha himself have said.
try to let go of theistic philosophy...OK...it just creates confusion upon confusion
277. "All conditioned things [which excludes Nibbana] are impermanent" — when one sees this with wisdom, one turns away from suffering. This is the path to purification.
278. "All conditioned things [which excludes Nibbana] are unsatisfactory" — when one sees this with wisdom, one turns away from suffering. This is the path to purification.
279. "All things [which includes Nibbana] are not-self" — when one sees this with wisdom, one turns away from suffering. This is the path to purification.
There are, Ananda, these two elements: the conditioned element and the unconditioned element. When he knows and sees these two elements, a monk can be called skilled in the elements.
Bhikkhus, there are these two Nibbana-elements. What are the two? The Nibbana-element with residue left and the Nibbana-element with no residue left.
some good discussion here....
thanks again...
There never has been an answer to this question, because it's a layer deeper than an already vexing question which is how everything started (which some answer with God, others answer with a Big Bang, etc.). If we're not even sure on that, how are we going even further down the rabbit hole? The Buddha didn't tell us. I think we have to realize emptiness for ourselves so that we stop needing to ask such questions that don't actually change anything for us... we'll just move onto more questions.
funnest fastest discussion ever
:rockon:
awakening happens when it does. one cannot force it nor make it occur. it just happens. we can only set up the right conditions. we do that by just accepting deeply and sincerely what is.
As I said, if there was infinite regress then suffering could not be ended
The cause of suffering could never be found in order to extinguish it
Your reasoning is 100% flawed, fatal and anti-Buddhism
It is adhamma
It is some kind of eternalism
Mixing too many religions is like mixing too many drinks or medications
Dangerous & futile
Regards