Did the Buddha warn about false teachings?

Inc88

An acquaintance of mine told me there was a quote or saying from the Buddha the basically said "beware of false teachings/dhamma" and then explained that when Buddhism separated into the different types we see today that those other branches were the false dhammas. When i asked him to explain a little bit more he even said in Theravada Buddhism some of their practices like constructing statues and worshiping the Buddha were activities the Buddha would speak against but if you wanted to practice any specific type of Buddhism Theravada was the best choice.

So basically im asking if there is such a quote or saying warning about other types of buddhism and what others opinions are on traditions that go against some of the precepts/ideals the buddha spoke of e.g. monks having families, having extra possessions, performing rituals, ect

FairyFeller

I think Buddha managed enlightenment without statues of himself (or a mirror) and complicated worshiping styles but I don't think there's too much to worry about about these things as long as we don't put too much emphasis on them.

That's only my humble personal opinion.

karasti

Do Buddhists really worship Buddha though? Usually worship is defined specifically as having a diety involved. Respecting a teacher and his teachings and keeping a visual of them and being respectful of that, isn't quite the same as worship to me. I'll have to think on that.

I think that if the Buddha were here today, he would think that whatever works for people is what is important. All areas of Buddhism specify the 4NT and N8FP, which is really what Buddhism is all about. If you are practicing that but are a Tibetan or Zen buddhist, I'm not sure Buddha would have had a problem. And it's not as if he is God, looking down on us for what we are doing and looking to punish us for practicing the right kind of Buddhism.

Jeffrey

If Buddhism produces no Buddhas then I recommend playing tennis.

If Buddhism does produce awakening(ed) beings well then they can add to the party and open up 84,000 dharma gates. 21000 for alleviation of anger. 21000 for alleviation of greed. 21000 for alleviation of delusion and 21000 for mixtures.

All of humanity was diverse thus Buddha's sangha was also diverse. There were yoga practitioners and former craftsman and former farmers. Thus Buddha is talking to one person he teaches them in a unique manner.

In my humble opinion a canon is done by a council. Some things are not included. For example not every word of Buddha was recorded in his 80 years. Possibly some things change as when the Bible is translated differently to suit some subgroup more. For example the King James Bible has the energy of the renaissance from when it was written.

Do you take this man at his word? Do you want to make up your own mind?

Jeffrey

It depends what you mean by worship, @karasti. If a house never has anything fixed it falls apart because there is no living connection to a being tending it. Worship could mean opening to the blessings of the lineage. In the Mahamudra and Dzogchen tradition they teach that the faster route is not to bother to develop the dhyanas (transformative meditations), but to go straight for the path of adhistana (blessing) and open up to all experience rather than trying too hard to control what arises in the mind.

The world is mysterious and we may not be sure if the Buddhas intervene in our life, but it is believed in Tibetan Buddism that for example asking for Padmasambavas blessing can remove obstacles. Ingenious people have devised mantras and pranidhanas (clearing your mind as to how to align with the path of the heart). For example the last section of the Avatamska sutra consists of a pranhidhana.

how

The four seals are the traditional method for determining what is Buddhist and what is not.
That and a practice that truely embodies the four Noble Truths/ The 8 Fold Path & Dependant Origination is all I think you need to watch for.

Metallica

Your friend is playing elitism. I would not follow his advice about Buddhism.

If you want to know about Therevada Buddhism:
http://www.buddhanet.net/

And the Buddha did not just teach the 4 noble truth and 8fold Venerable Path. He also taught dependent origination, 6 paramitas, emptiness, etc etc. You can also look into Mahayana Buddhism for more information.

Daozen

Theravada is arguably closest to the original teachings of Buddha.

Many Mahayana teachings (such as Buddha-nature) were added centuries later.

But does it matter? The Buddha is alive in every moment, not a dead fossil.

vinlyn

Inc88 said:

An acquaintance of mine told me there was a quote or saying from the Buddha the basically said "beware of false teachings/dhamma" and then explained that when Buddhism separated into the different types we see today that those other branches were the false dhammas. When i asked him to explain a little bit more he even said in Theravada Buddhism some of their practices like constructing statues and worshiping the Buddha were activities the Buddha would speak against but if you wanted to practice any specific type of Buddhism Theravada was the best choice.

So basically im asking if there is such a quote or saying warning about other types of buddhism and what others opinions are on traditions that go against some of the precepts/ideals the buddha spoke of e.g. monks having families, having extra possessions, performing rituals, ect

When I think of the type of Buddhism I saw in Thailand, I would say that there was, to some extent, the worshiping of Buddha. But I also think that a lot of that was using Buddha statues (et. al.) as a point of focus. What I usually saw (and did) was to pay homage to the statue, but then some meditation (or at least focused thinking).

Of course, anything can be taken too far.

karasti

@Jeffrey I don't think i can adequately explain it. When I think of how we were taught to worship images/statues of Christ and Mary, that was a very different feeling from any sort of "worship" I practice towards my little Buddha statue. Perhaps people who are Christian where the religion works well for them, feel the same as I do, I really don't know. But I don't feel as if I worship Buddha. Respect and reverence isn't the same as worship, to me, and I guess because of the nature of the term of worship it has a negative connotation to me. I'm not talking about asking for blessings or anything like that. But the actual act of a worship of a statue and other such things, which is what I took away from the OPs post.

lobster

The Buddha created a body of teaching (dharma) and expertise (sangha). Throughout history a pick and mix system has emerged. Just as the Buddha created teaching for his time and environment based on his best abilities (which were considerable).

Through insight some notable new awakening karma is added to the store. The theravadins were one of several original sangha that has prevailed. Are all their monks awake? Are all the monks of other denominations awake? Do sangha still asleep, teach?

What is the test of a true dharma?
Awakening . . . :clap:

footiam

FairyFeller said:

I think Buddha managed enlightenment without statues of himself (or a mirror) and complicated worshiping styles but I don't think there's too much to worry about about these things as long as we don't put too much emphasis on them.

That's only my humble personal opinion.

I heard there are no statues of Buddha during Buddha's time. They came into being because of the Greeks. In any case, I suppose as FairyFeller said, there's nothing to worry about if you don't place emphasis on them. Some people need the statues to refer to just like some need need the crucifix. Most probably, in Buddhism, the 5precepts and Noble Truth matter most.

TheEccentric

I wouldn't say that what Vajrayana and Mahayana do is worship the Buddha, I have heard we do this because if you develop strong faith and respect for the Buddha you will thereby gain stronger faith and respect for his teachings and the wish to practice them which will speed up your drive towards enlightenment.

Citta

Buddh -"ism" and Buddh-"ist" are modern western constructs...there is no ism or ist in the Buddhas original teaching..it was known as Buddhadhamma or Buddhadharma.
The emphasis was on the teaching.
For hundreds of years after the Buddhas time there were no Buddha Rupas ( statues ).
The Buddha was represented usually by a footprint with a chakra ( wheel ) in the sole of the foot.

Incidentally although it might appear the Theravada is older than the Mahayana, things are more complex than that. The Theravada is in fact a relatively recent form of one of the now obsolete earlier schools.

lobster

The shakyamuni era will be redundant in a few hundred years. The new Buddha (Maitreya) will establish the new dharma. Can hardly wait . . . :clap:

droplet

The Buddha said
"Do not simply believe what you hear just because you have heard it for a long time.
Believe nothing on the faith of traditions, even though they have been held in honor for many generations and in diverse places.
Do not believe a thing because many people speak of it.
Do not confirm anything just because it agrees with your scriptures.
Do not be fooled by outward appearances.
Do not believe what you yourself have imagined, persuading yourself that a god inspires you.
Do not accept as fact anything that you yourself find to be logical.
Believe nothing on the sole authority of your masters and priests.
But whatever, after due examination and analysis, you find to be kind, conducive to the good, the benefit, the welfare of all beings - that doctrine believe and cling to, and take it as your guide."

The Buddha included himself in this. On another occasion, he told his monks to not believe what he says simply because they revere him. It is always necessary to test. This is one of the purposes of meditation. Buddhism is a very scientific spiritual path.

Citta

Inc88 said:

An acquaintance of mine told me there was a quote or saying from the Buddha the basically said "beware of false teachings/dhamma" and then explained that when Buddhism separated into the
different types we see today that those other branches were the false dhammas. When i asked him to explain a little bit more he even said in Theravada Buddhism some of their practices like constructing statues and worshiping the Buddha were activities the Buddha would speak against but if you wanted to practice any specific type of Buddhism Theravada was the best choice.

So basically im asking if there is such a quote or saying warning about other types of buddhism and what others opinions are on traditions that go against some of the precepts/ideals the buddha spoke of e.g. monks having families, having extra possessions, performing rituals, ect

The Buddha in several of the Pali Suttas spoke about the " Dhamma Ending Age " when his teaching would be diluted by wrong views and subjective frivolity..I can find the sources but not right now.

music

Citta said:

Inc88 said:

An acquaintance of mine told me there was a quote or saying from the Buddha the basically said "beware of false teachings/dhamma" and then explained that when Buddhism separated into the
different types we see today that those other branches were the false dhammas. When i asked him to explain a little bit more he even said in Theravada Buddhism some of their practices like constructing statues and worshiping the Buddha were activities the Buddha would speak against but if you wanted to practice any specific type of Buddhism Theravada was the best choice.

So basically im asking if there is such a quote or saying warning about other types of buddhism and what others opinions are on traditions that go against some of the precepts/ideals the buddha spoke of e.g. monks having families, having extra possessions, performing rituals, ect

The Buddha in several of the Pali Suttas spoke about the " Dhamma Ending Age " when his teaching would be diluted by wrong views and subjective frivolity..I can find the sources but not right now.

Lol, almost as if he browsed our forum.

DairyLama

Citta said:

The Buddha in several of the Pali Suttas spoke about the " Dhamma Ending Age " when his teaching would be diluted by wrong views and subjective frivolity..

Secular Buddhism?

Citta

The clearest teaching concerning the Dhamma Ending Age from a Pali source is from the " Anagata-Vamsa " or chronicles of future events.
The age will be characterised by the " Five Disappearances "
The disappearance of Attainments...
Fewer and fewer people will reach the insights that follow proper practice of Vipassana and Samatha etc.A teaching of false samadhis will prevail.
The disappearance of the Methods which result in the attainments.
The disappearance of the Learning which underpins those methods and the substitution of whimsical activities which bolster the self sense.
The disappearance of a true understanding of the Symbols which encapsulate that learning..
And the disappearance of the Relics associated with Shakyamuni Buddha..
Following this comes the End of the Kalpa... this particular World Era.
This is closely parallelled in the Mahayana by the teachings concerning The Kaliyuga. The age of iron..and the triumph of Materialism
Which many Vajra teachers consider we have already entered...

NB. This has nothing to do with spurious "Mayan " prophesies.

Cinorjer

As listed above by the more scholarly members, there are a couple of instances where Buddha supposedly talked about the teaching of false practices. These were written at a time after Buddha's death when the monks had already started arguing amongst themselves over who had the authentic lineage and practice, so the most amazing thing to learn is even several hundred years after the founding, some monks were pining for that Olde Time Buddhism and worried about that "modern Buddhism" and the modern world (circa 200 AD modern) that would degrade the Dharma. Every generation since then has a group with the same complaints.

Fact is, not one of the schools of Buddhism today practice the way Buddha did. The great strength of the Sangha is its ability to translate the Dharma into what is, for that time, the "modern world".

Citta

We are free of course to interpret this..although the views of Buddhist teachers are invaluable in any interpretation..but if we tend to interpret the Buddhas teachings in a symbolic or poetic way it behoves us at the very least to have a clear view of that which we are interpreting.
We are not free ( if we value our integrity ) to simply make stuff up at whim.
This requires some hard work in unpacking the source material..

Cinorjer

Citta said:

We are free of course to interpret this..although the views of Buddhist teachers are invaluable in any interpretation..but if we tend to interpret the Buddhas teachings in a symbolic or poetic way it behoves us at the very least to have a clear view of that which we are interpreting.
We are not free ( if we value our integrity ) to simply make stuff up at whim.
This requires some hard work in unpacking the source material..

I totally agree. Because we have to look at the Dharma with our own eyes, doesn't mean it's "anything goes" and we can reinvent Buddhism. That good old Middle Way sneaks in once more.

genkaku

The only false teaching in Buddhism is "Buddhism."

Vastmind

Book of revelations? False prophets?
Wolf in sheep clothing.

I used to hear this at church with my Nana.
Just sayin.

DairyLama

Citta said:

This requires some hard work in unpacking the source material..

I agree. And setting aside personal belief and disbelief is also helpful.

DairyLama

Cinorjer said:

As listed above by the more scholarly members, there are a couple of instances where Buddha supposedly talked about the teaching of false practices. These were written at a time after Buddha's death when the monks had already started arguing amongst themselves over who had the authentic lineage and practice,

Do you have any evidence for this assertion?

Citta

genkaku said:

The only false teaching in Buddhism is "Buddhism."

Which does not obviate the fact that the Buddha bequeathed us a large body of teachings including some fairly specific do's and dont's. Its called The Buddhadharma

But of course its much cooler to dismiss that fact. Particularly if we have problems with the idea of authority.

Citta

A lifetime struggle against the idea of authority is in fact just another variety of conformism.

hermitwin

yes, the question was put directly to the buddha.
and the buddha said yes, beware of false teachings.
in fact, buddha predicted that his teachings will last for 500 yrs only.

how do we know the authenticity of a teaching?
as a rule of thumb, you refer to the sutta and vinaya.

Inc88 said:

An acquaintance of mine told me there was a quote or saying from the Buddha the basically said "beware of false teachings/dhamma" and then explained that when Buddhism separated into the different types we see today that those other branches were the false dhammas. When i asked him to explain a little bit more he even said in Theravada Buddhism some of their practices like constructing statues and worshiping the Buddha were activities the Buddha would speak against but if you wanted to practice any specific type of Buddhism Theravada was the best choice.

So basically im asking if there is such a quote or saying warning about other types of buddhism and what others opinions are on traditions that go against some of the precepts/ideals the buddha spoke of e.g. monks having families, having extra possessions, performing rituals, ect

vinlyn

So, Hermitwin, you seem to be saying that the Buddha was capable of making mistakes.

zenff

The current Dalai Lama, who has flown about the round world several times, seems to have put an end to flat earthism among Tibetans by saying the historical Buddha was wrong about the shape of the earth. However, "The purpose of the Buddha coming to this world was not to measure the circumference of the world and the distance between the earth and the moon, but rather to teach the Dharma, to liberate sentient beings, to relieve sentient beings of their sufferings."
http://buddhism.about.com/od/buddhisthistory/a/mountmeru.htm

The historical Buddha was wrong; completely wrong. The world is not flat.
So my question is; what is a false teaching?
Is a teaching false if it contradicts what the Buddha taught or is it false if it contradicts the facts?
Apparently the Buddha was very capable of being wrong on the basic facts of life.

vinlyn

I agree, Zenff. And I think it's an important point, but also one that shouldn't be expanded too much. If, indeed, he said his teachings would only survive for 500 years...well, he was wrong. And yet we know him as being wise.

Was he, perhaps, capable of being wrong on facts, but right on principles?

zenff

Yes, and his psychologial insights are very good I think.

vinlyn

Yes, @Zenff, I agree.

thickpaper

Inc88 said:

An acquaintance of mine told me there was a quote or saying from the Buddha the basically said "beware of false teachings/dhamma" and then explained that when Buddhism separated into the different types we see today that those other branches were the false dhammas. When i asked him to explain a little bit more he even said in Theravada Buddhism some of their practices like constructing statues and worshiping the Buddha were activities the Buddha would speak against but if you wanted to practice any specific type of Buddhism Theravada was the best choice.

So basically im asking if there is such a quote or saying warning about other types of buddhism and what others opinions are on traditions that go against some of the precepts/ideals the buddha spoke of e.g. monks having families, having extra possessions, performing rituals, ect

He did warn against believing all teachings, including his own: "Question all things, be one's own light."

It is this profound and starling skepticism that is the starting point of the path of Dharma.

Citta

The Buddha taught within the accepted cosmological paradigm of his age.
That included a flat earth, a great mountain at the centre of the universe, and earthquakes caused by tremors in the water that the earth floats in...
But as the DL pointed out the Buddha was not making an ontological statement about the world...
And his central truths of the Three Signs of Being remain unaffected by being delivered against a backdrop of ancient Indian cosmology.

David

hermitwin said:

yes, the question was put directly to the buddha.
and the buddha said yes, beware of false teachings.
in fact, buddha predicted that his teachings will last for 500 yrs only.

how do we know the authenticity of a teaching?
as a rule of thumb, you refer to the sutta and vinaya.

How can we trust the authenticity of a sutta if most of them were not written down until after the teachings were bastardized?

From what I can tell, we are not doomed to darkness for the lack of light as a whole. I would wager there are more and more of us waking up every day in this, the age of information.

I don't think Buddha taught to beware of false teachings so much as he taught to recognize the "right" ones.

Cinorjer

PedanticPorpoise said:

Cinorjer said:

As listed above by the more scholarly members, there are a couple of instances where Buddha supposedly talked about the teaching of false practices. These were written at a time after Buddha's death when the monks had already started arguing amongst themselves over who had the authentic lineage and practice,

Do you have any evidence for this assertion?

The first three Buddhist councils were entirely about some very serious disputes between monks over doctrine, beginning shortly after Buddha's death. Here is a good summary of them: http://www.urbandharma.org/udharma/councils.html

The summary for the first council in fact glosses over some of the infighting already going on over Ananda, in particular. The acknowledged favorite was pushed aside immediately after Buddha's death, with claims that the one man who understood Buddha more than anyone somehow was not worthy to lead the Sangha, being only a "stream-winner" while the others who wanted the role had already achieved Arahant status. However, Ananda remained popular with most monks even if he wasn't the slickest politician in the group or was unwilling to do what was needed to wrest control from the others, so the monk who was jockying for the leadership position, Mahakassapa, made sure Ananda was announced to have coincidentally achieved Arahant status just before the council debate, making him equal to the other senior monks and so this popular monk's voice and vote would be given the weight needed for his side to win.

Now granted the official line does a bit of whitewashing, but anyone who has sat on even a church board understands the political posturing and backdoor dealing going on. The second and third councils were even worse. And these were fights over doctrine between monks who had all spent their lives studying the words of Buddha almost first hand.

What chance do we have, of finding that one true Dharma?

Jeffrey

Interesting Cinorjer.

how

@Cinorjer
Yes, This was what I was taught.

(Quote)
What chance do we have, of finding that one true Dharma?

The best answer for me was one interpretation of the closing of the Pranjnaparimita.
which was...

Going, going, always going on, always becoming Buddha.

Cinorjer

how said:

@Cinorjer
Yes, This was what I was taught.

(Quote)
What chance do we have, of finding that one true Dharma?

The best answer for me was one interpretation of the closing of the Pranjnaparimita.
which was...

Going, going, always going on, always becoming Buddha.

One of my favorite lines of all time. Thank you for the reminder.

DairyLama

Cinorjer said:

Now granted the official line does a bit of whitewashing....

How could you possibly know?

DairyLama

Citta said:

...the Buddha was not making an ontological statement about the world...

I don't think that view is supported by the suttas, where one finds lots and lots of cosmology.

Citta

PedanticPorpoise said:

Citta said:

...the Buddha was not making an ontological statement about the world...

I don't think that view is supported by the suttas, where one finds lots and lots of cosmology.

What one finds is the cosmological view of Ancient India its the same in the Suttas, the Vedas and the teachings of the Jains.....There are various ways of viewing this..among them is the view that in these matters the Buddha was a man of his time who did indeed believe that there was a vast mountain at the centre of the universe ( for example )
Another is that as it did not affect his central message, he was quite happy to deal in the cosmological currency of his age..
Another is the fact that the ancients did not distinguish between the ontological and the mythological as we would,
I suppose there is also the possibility that there actually IS a giant mountain in the centre of the universe..lol.
In all and any case what is starkly true is that sentient life is characterised by dukkha, anicca and anatta...the urgent question is what we do about that.

Jason

Personally, I don't put too much stock in the whole 'we're living in a degenerate age' thing. One reason is that much of what forms the textual basis for this idea is of a fairly late date and/or commentarial literature. The Anagatavamsa, for example, is a relatively late text and isn't canonical. The Gandhavamsa ascribes authorship to the elder Kassapa, the author of the Mohavicchedani (12th -13th century CE). And the 500 year prophecy, which deals with both the brute survival of the teaching and the survival of the teaching unadulterated with 'synthetic Dhamma' (saddhamma-patirupa), isn't only controversial and considered by many to be a later addition, but also held by many who do accept it as being conditional. Many hold that the acceptance of the additional rules on the part of the bhikkhunis and the subsequent council after the Buddha's death altered this, acting as conditions for the teachings' survival far into the future.

Whatever the case, one of the things I like about the Thai Forest Tradition, besides their focus on practicing, is their belief that awakening is still a possibility and open to all. There was a time not that long ago in Theravada when it was generally believed that it's no longer possible to become an arahant — that we're living in a 'degenerate age' — therefore monks usually spent most of their time studying the texts in order to preserve what's left of the 'true Dhamma' and try to become at least stream-enterers by intellectually understanding concepts such as not-self. Both monastics and non-monastics alike thought it was better to study the texts and to make merit than to practice meditation, hoping to eventually be reborn in a better time and place where the Dhamma and the ability to attain awakening will be restored by the next Buddha, Mettaya (hence the popularity of the Anagatavamsa). But thanks to monks like Ajahn Sao and Ajahn Mun in Thailand, as well as other contemporaries like Mingun Jetavana Sayadaw in Burma, who decided to start putting the Buddha's teachings on meditation back into practice and strive for liberation, that's changed.

Citta

Very well put.

how

If one percent of the various doom and gloom scenareos that each new decade of history claims that we are just entering, were true, who'd be left to be typing this now?
The one thing each new decade shares with every other is that oh so common specialness by which our ego's view it.
Hubris!
There is just the work of being open and present in this very moment which we take on or not. Each moment, another manifestation of buddhahood or not, totally in our hearts, with no worldly conditions to excuse.
I think that's called spiritual adulthood.

Cinorjer

PedanticPorpoise said:

Cinorjer said:

Now granted the official line does a bit of whitewashing....

How could you possibly know?

Because Buddhist scholars who have studied what the sutras actually have to say about the first council point out that one of the first orders of business, by their own records, was to put Ananda on trial. It was, in fact, a trap by Mahakassapa in an effort to force Ananda out of the Sangha completely. Yet in almost all of the accounts of the first council in popular religious sites and teachings including the one I linked to above you will never hear about that. The official history as recounted tries to paint everyone as enlightened and peaceful and ready to follow Buddha's example.

Ananda's great sin was to convince Buddha to ordain nuns, something the old Braham Mahakassapa always objected to. In fact, the old monk refused to allow the Arahant nuns to attend his council. Ananda was charged with using his influence on the Buddha to get women admitted. He was also charged with allowing nuns who had showed up soon after Buddha's death to view the body first, instead of making them wait until the men had the honor of viewing the body like the second class citizens the old monk considered them to be. There were a few other charges, but those were picky like accidentally stepping on the Buddha's robe one time while mending it.

Ananda according to the record pleaded guilty but with the mitigating circumstance that he didn't know any of this was a crime. He accepted the authority of the congress to punish as it saw fit. Curiously, it doesn't say what that punishment was. However, soon after this first council the order of nuns began its long decline under the sometimes overt hostility of the male monks.

This is what I mean by whitewash. The information is there, but you have to dig through a lot of scholarly papers to find out just how petty and vindictive even the honored founders of our religion could be. The monks who we honor deserve that honor for passing the Dharma down through the centuries to us. Without them, we would not have the Noble Truths. But they were just people, not elevated, transcendent superhumans.

lobster

But they were just people, not elevated, transcendent superhumans.

No, no :bawl:
Just ordinary humans can become awakened?
The Buddha was just human?
We may become awakened in this very life?
It is all so . . . so . . . ordinary . . .
I feel a spurt of reverence coming on . . .

Hail Buddha, Full of Grace, the awakened are with thee; blessed art thou amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of thy sangha, Ananda.
Holy Tara, Mother of Buddhas, prostrate for us sleepers, now and at the hour of our awakening. OM MANI PEME HUM
Based on Hello Mary

Better now. :wave:

JohnG

The thing about false teaching, is that it usually destroy's itself after defendiing itself. Truth must yield to reality in teaching.