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"Dare to Disagree"

genkakugenkaku Northampton, Mass. U.S.A. Veteran
edited January 2013 in Arts & Writings
Passed along in email: "Dare to Disagree" ... an intelligent talk.
ArthurbodhiVastmindlobster
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Comments

  • ArthurbodhiArthurbodhi Mars Veteran
    Omg, I think that I totally disagree with this video!...err...nah, actually is a good idea and is noble, good bye friend.
  • NevermindNevermind Bitter & Hateful Veteran
    I guess if you don't care very much a *pleasant* community is ideal.
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    I like the talk. I am reminded of when I was an assistant principal, and I acted very much as a "devil's advocate" to the principal at the time. Sometimes my arguments would steer things in another direction, sometimes not...but at least we got to brainstorm things which might affect the ultimate outcome.

    A good example was when (it was a middle school) we had a student who was going to publicly announce at school that he was gay. The principal was going to suspend him because, "He can't do that at school!" Well, I played devil's advocate and brought up such issues as freedom of speech and restricting the way in which he was going to do it (for example, he was initially going to stand up in the main hallway with a bullhorn and announce it). Ultimately, the principal realized the right to freedom of speech, but also the need not to create a general disturbance to the learning environment, and she worked with the student to come up with a more suitable way to accomplish his goals (not that I quite agreed with the way it came down, but we turned it into a controlled situation, not a crisis).
  • VastmindVastmind Memphis, TN Veteran
    edited January 2013
    I was always one of those people who was more afraid of the silence.

    :rockon:
    novaw0lf
  • novaw0lfnovaw0lf Veteran
    edited January 2013
    This video really hit me hard. The video said that the female doctor had a huge fight on her hands, and the other doctor's job was to prove her wrong. That's the very mindset that I have in posting recently in this forum. I have a big fight on my hands (so-to-speak, no pun intended), a hypothesis about violence being acceptable on some levels in Buddhist theology, that nonviolence -all the time in every scenario- is also an extreme not to be followed; prove me wrong...if you can. Then to use the results as a method of improving some of the world's problems.

    Wow. An excellent contribution. ^^; I totally relate to the doctor's character. Think different, and use others of whom you -know- will disagree with you as a method for gaining insight and clarity in your viewpoints.

    "...it means that we have to seek out different people with different backgrounds, different disciplines, and different ways of thinking...and that requires a lot of patience."

    Bravo.
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    See, here you go again -- fight, fight, fight.
  • The principle is enshrined in TB and other sangha training - Dharma debate . . .
    every point raised is emphasised with a hand clap in the Tibetan version
  • vinlyn said:

    See, here you go again -- fight, fight, fight.

    It's really not surprising that novaw0lf sees the world thru the lense he does. He is a soldier and has said that he has come from a background that included conflict and violence.
    You often refer to your own experiences as a school principal. Or the impact that spending time in Thailand has had on you. It is in your postings regularly.
    For me, much of the way I see the world including the way I interact with people, or view nature, and my role in it, is through a lense shaped by 35 seasons of fishing as skipper of my boat.
    The fact of my livelihood is in my thoughts a great deal, particularly with regard to my own understanding of Buddhist principals.
    If someone asked me to describe myself, "fisherman" would have to be my first response.
    Why wouldn't novaw0lf bring his past with him into his posts?
    Briannovaw0lfStraight_Man
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    I understand that, @Robot. But I failing to see the link of conflict and violence with Buddhism. In fact, I would say Buddhism is the opposite of conflict and violence.
  • zenffzenff Veteran
    edited January 2013
    The key is that a conflict - when it is welcomed - is not really a conflict.

    When dissident opinion is accepted the other person is like the opponent in sport, when it is not tolerated the other person is like the enemy in war and being a whistle-blower can ruin a person's career and personal life.

    The working relationship between the doctor and the statistic (in the story) is not hostile; unfortunately in other working relationships disagreement often is a hostile, a personal thing.

    Maybe the key is to have no ego attached to ones point of view. The best outcome is not that “I win” but that the best possible solution to the problem emerges.
    Nirvananovaw0lf
  • DavidDavid A human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First Nations Veteran
    vinlyn said:

    I understand that, @Robot. But I failing to see the link of conflict and violence with Buddhism. In fact, I would say Buddhism is the opposite of conflict and violence.

    I can see what they're saying. With power comes responsibility, just ask Spider-man.

    If someone is being attacked or even if it is just us, if we let the attacker kill us or the other then we are actually spreading more violence because of future victimization.

    I do call defence non-violence however. Revenge is a different matter.

    novaw0lfArthurbodhi
  • With power comes responsibility, just ask Spider-man.
    There are degrees of skilfulness. Spinning a web for the lizard brained is one . . . The ability to resolve conflict or better still work towards the generation of peacefulness in people is a great skill. There are animal parts of the human condition that generate, expect and even perversely enjoy conflict - overcoming an enemy, asserting dominance etc. We all, apart from fluffy bunny Buddhists, can be prey to these tendencies. Ahimsa is a great achievement.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahimsa
    It means we generate a field of equanimity and peace from our evolvement . . . :wave:
  • Straight_ManStraight_Man Gentle Man Veteran
    vinlyn said:

    I understand that, @Robot. But I failing to see the link of conflict and violence with Buddhism. In fact, I would say Buddhism is the opposite of conflict and violence.

    Well, we hang out on this New Buddhist site, and bring ourselves to it seeking better understanding. Thus we are not ideal, or we would not be seeking enlightenment.

    In this case, Americans tend to be only literal about violence as a last resort if we are among the reasonable ones. We seek out war on terror against our homeland, as would many of many countries. We reasonable Americans do not war except for debate/discussion formalized, with allies. Let us be allies on this site.

    lobsternovaw0lf
  • Nevermind said:

    I guess if you don't care very much a *pleasant* community is ideal.

    Interesting how pleasant is equated with agreement. As Margaret says in the video...
    " we have to resist the neurobiological drive which means that we really prefer people mostly like ourselves ". Conventional wisdom only gets us so far.

  • NevermindNevermind Bitter & Hateful Veteran
    andyrobyn said:

    Nevermind said:

    I guess if you don't care very much a *pleasant* community is ideal.

    Interesting how pleasant is equated with agreement. As Margaret says in the video...
    " we have to resist the neurobiological drive which means that we really prefer people mostly like ourselves ". Conventional wisdom only gets us so far.

    Hi Andyrobyn,

    I don't follow.
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    andyrobyn said:

    Nevermind said:

    I guess if you don't care very much a *pleasant* community is ideal.

    Interesting how pleasant is equated with agreement. As Margaret says in the video...
    " we have to resist the neurobiological drive which means that we really prefer people mostly like ourselves ". Conventional wisdom only gets us so far.

    How true. I rarely let my teacher-department chairs interview teaching candidates, because they always wanted to hire carbon copies of themselves, rather than diversify the teaching staff to be able to satisfy the needs of a broader base of children.

  • Nevermind said:

    andyrobyn said:

    Nevermind said:

    I guess if you don't care very much a *pleasant* community is ideal.

    Interesting how pleasant is equated with agreement. As Margaret says in the video...
    " we have to resist the neurobiological drive which means that we really prefer people mostly like ourselves ". Conventional wisdom only gets us so far.

    Hi Andyrobyn,

    I don't follow.
    "Pleasant" community does not imply a group of obsequious sycophants. Healthy debate and differences is very pleasant, IMO and in my experience this type of pleasant leads to much greater discussion and learning.
    lobsternovaw0lf
  • NevermindNevermind Bitter & Hateful Veteran
    andyrobyn said:

    Nevermind said:

    andyrobyn said:

    Nevermind said:

    I guess if you don't care very much a *pleasant* community is ideal.

    Interesting how pleasant is equated with agreement. As Margaret says in the video...
    " we have to resist the neurobiological drive which means that we really prefer people mostly like ourselves ". Conventional wisdom only gets us so far.

    Hi Andyrobyn,

    I don't follow.
    "Pleasant" community does not imply a group of obsequious sycophants. Healthy debate and differences is very pleasant, IMO and in my experience this type of pleasant leads to much greater discussion and learning.
    Hello! and greetings from the Milky Way galaxy. Where are you from?
    andyrobyn
  • genkakugenkaku Northampton, Mass. U.S.A. Veteran
    As much as I appreciate the social implications of getting or creating wider input on any topic, I guess a large part of why I posted the video in the first place was to suggest that when practicing Buddhism, there can arise a very agreeable agreement with ourselves ... a coziness that may not take the time to question or investigate within. The emperor is wearing wondrous clothes ... or is s/he?

    Too much well-trusted certainty and we miss the point.

    Too much doubt and we become immobilized.

    Just thinking a little.
    andyrobynnovaw0lf
  • Zenff put it well earlier, " conflict" is not there when we dare to disagree unless we view difference that way and the sentiment of buddhist teachings does not encourage such a view.
  • People who are manifesting an aspect of the 'wrathful' perhaps from yidam practice are very interesting. For example how would you create an increase of patience in people? Well . . . If you are centered well enough in yourself, you can generate sufficient vexation for another person to develop from a mild conflict. This is of course quite a developed capacity and most of us generate such a 'teaching', through our personality foibles, rather than mindful service . . .

    "When we look straight at an emotion such as anger, no matter where or how we look, we cannot pinpoint anything that is solid or real. Our anger appears to us like the reflection of the moon on water - clearly apparent, yet utterly selfless. It is nothing more than the display of mind's luminous energy arising from empty awareness wisdom.
    ...

    For a moment, pretend that it is tomorrow and you are looking back at today, at any moment of anger or strong emotion that you remember. What appears to us now as so real and compelling, such that we speak and act in certain ways, can appear from tomorrow's point of view as no more substantial and significant than a mirage.

    When we truly look at our emotions, we find they are simply a display - the expression of self-existing, self-arising wisdom. They are the expression of the nature of mind, of ordinary mind, of rigpa. They are nothing but the manifestation of mind's inherent clarity."

    "Mind beyond Death", Dzogchen Ponlop Rinpoche, Snow Lion Publications, 2006 (pp. 113/114)

    relevent to this is mind training
    http://www.unfetteredmind.org/mindtraining/fullindex.php
    novaw0lf
  • novaw0lfnovaw0lf Veteran
    edited January 2013
    lobster said:

    People who are manifesting an aspect of the 'wrathful' perhaps from yidam practice are very interesting. For example how would you create an increase of patience in people? Well . . . If you are centered well enough in yourself, you can generate sufficient vexation for another person to develop from a mild conflict. This is of course quite a developed capacity and most of us generate such a 'teaching', through our personality foibles, rather than mindful service . . .

    "When we look straight at an emotion such as anger, no matter where or how we look, we cannot pinpoint anything that is solid or real. Our anger appears to us like the reflection of the moon on water - clearly apparent, yet utterly selfless. It is nothing more than the display of mind's luminous energy arising from empty awareness wisdom.
    ...

    For a moment, pretend that it is tomorrow and you are looking back at today, at any moment of anger or strong emotion that you remember. What appears to us now as so real and compelling, such that we speak and act in certain ways, can appear from tomorrow's point of view as no more substantial and significant than a mirage.

    When we truly look at our emotions, we find they are simply a display - the expression of self-existing, self-arising wisdom. They are the expression of the nature of mind, of ordinary mind, of rigpa. They are nothing but the manifestation of mind's inherent clarity."

    "Mind beyond Death", Dzogchen Ponlop Rinpoche, Snow Lion Publications, 2006 (pp. 113/114)

    relevent to this is mind training
    http://www.unfetteredmind.org/mindtraining/fullindex.php

    A powerful, powerful post.

    When I read: "When we look straight at an emotion such as anger, no matter where or how we look, we cannot pinpoint anything that is solid or real. Our anger appears to us like the reflection of the moon on water - clearly apparent, yet utterly selfless. It is nothing more than the display of mind's luminous energy arising from empty awareness wisdom."

    I had no choice but to completely agree from personal experience. Anger (or really, any overwhelming emotion for that matter) is like a lens that we use to interpret a specific moment's truth. But no matter how you look through this lens, it is still a matter of completely distorted subjectivity that becomes less and less rational the more potent the emotion becomes. It is as if logic and emotions mix like oil and water, as if one existed on one side of a pendulum or the other. Love (or rather, infatuation) can be just as blinding as anger, as greed, or any one human emotion (or sin, in reference to Dante's Divine Comedy).

    Through awareness training, one can cultivate the mental circuits necessary (like a mental alarm, so-to-speak) that alerts them when their emotions are overwhelming their logic. The only remedy? Resisting the urge to give in to your emotions long enough to separate oneself from the situation before any action is taken or decision is made, and to regain one's composure before venturing further.
  • novaw0lfnovaw0lf Veteran
    edited January 2013
    As far as "Dar[ing] to Disagree" is concerned, I personally believe that the human race thrives and evolves through conflict. NOTE: I said "conflict", not "violence".

    Through intellectual conflict, it is as if two (or more) opposing powers meet in combat, a duel, the other trying to prove the other wrong. It matters not who is wrong or right, but instead the ideas that are born from the necessity for victory. As they say, necessity is the mother of invention. And as @lobster said, there are parts of the brain that actually thrive and "perversely" desire conflict. If everyone agrees, then from an omniscient point-of-view, we attain a kind of stagnation, and stagnation is a kind of death.

    I refer to and paraphrase Jack London's White Fang, when he philosophized that motion is life and stagnation is death.

    A live example of this was my post (that Vinlyn keeps criticizing me about). It was posted with absolute respect to the rules of the forum, and a genuine intent to find a suitable answer to a proposed question and scenario. The conflict of my ideas versus everyone else's gave the forum "life". And even on a bigger scale, for those of us who understand e-marketing, the more we type on this forum, the more search engines have to use as keywords, which leads to more visitors to the site, which leads to more activity, which leads to the evolution of more ideas and the fruition of knowledge transferred and shared to all for free. Which in turn, can affect the entire world for the better on a massive scale.

    "The journey is more important than the end or the start." -Mike Shinoda (Linkin Park).

    Multiply the size of the scale. Following my quest for peace in action, I seek to engage in conflict that respects all living creatures on the planet, therein growing them, evolving them, pushing them forward.
  • Use of the term conflict as a noun tends to invoke ideas of a battle, fight or war arising from disagreement and whilst this may be a human tendency is not the aim of the kind of discussions I enjoy, let alone would seek as a way forward on a bigger scale.
  • howhow Veteran Veteran
    Perhaps some of the differences between novawOLF's view and others hinges on the different parameters that contains each view.

    NovawOlF's last posting (here exposing my lack of investigation of the entire thread) speaks in terms of the evolution of the human race whereas myself as a Buddhist meditator concern myself with the path for the cessation of suffering.

    NovawOLF holds the survival of humanity or himself to be of paramount importance while I, perhaps like some others here, look to the cessation of suffering as the goal of goalessness.

    It may be an apples and oranges discussion..
    or an ego's view of egolessness and vise versa..
    novaw0lf
  • andyrobynandyrobyn Veteran
    edited January 2013
    Perhaps ... genkaku has also posted his intention for posting the video which is also coming from a different angle again and on a more interpersonal level - it is all good. Like Buddhist debate ( I am a TB practitioner and have the benefit of attending debates between some knowledgeable masters in dharma debate ) - it can be a great spectacle, an energetic competition between sharp, quick thinking, dharma practitioners. The motivation is to promote learning and open up knowledge.
  • how said:

    Perhaps some of the differences between novawOLF's view and others hinges on the different parameters that contains each view.

    NovawOlF's last posting (here exposing my lack of investigation of the entire thread) speaks in terms of the evolution of the human race whereas myself as a Buddhist meditator concern myself with the path for the cessation of suffering.

    NovawOLF holds the survival of humanity or himself to be of paramount importance while I, perhaps like some others here, look to the cessation of suffering as the goal of goalessness.

    It may be an apples and oranges discussion..
    or an ego's view of egolessness and vise versa..

    I see what you're saying. I am aware that aspects of survival and evolution entail goals. Goals pull away from the goalless state or Nirvana. I've known this for a long time.

    Perhaps I am different from every Buddhist when I say (as I have said in other threads) that Nirvana isn't something I want. I have personally reached an understanding in my meditations of what it takes to reach Nirvana, and I cannot support ascending to such a state whilst leaving everyone behind. Therein: my biggest attachment.

    I am arbitrarily avoiding Nirvana because the world is my biggest attachment. In a post titled: What is your Buddhist Goal, I wrote to @zombiegirl:
    I submit that one who has a basic understanding of Buddhist thought would probably say something along the lines of: My Buddhist goal is to have no goal.

    ...but me personally? My goal is to suffer.

    My greatest attachment is the world itself; should I detach from this world entirely and reach nirvana, I would leave it alone to its own demons and devices, and frankly, I'm arrogant and crazy enough to believe that I can make some kind of a difference in this crazy world for the better. Therein, my goal is to reincarnate as many times as possible, to deny nirvana, because my happiness is nothing when I think about the pain of the world, and how I could use my talents to help it, if but even in the smallest of ways. When everyone can ascend to nirvana, then I will. Until that day, I will remain here, in one form or another, forever, by choice.

    There is much work to be done, and many people to be helped.
  • howhow Veteran Veteran
    edited January 2013
    @novawOLF

    Perhap your biggest attachment may not be that noble Bodhisattva ideal you espouse but is instead the concept that you are a actually an entity, separated from the rest of the world that is capable of performing such feats. It has certainly been a story co opted by many other spiritual ego's.

    No particular insight on my part...Just a thought.
    lobster
  • howhow Veteran Veteran
    @novawOLF

    I am in some agreement with you in that
    wanting Nirvana seems an oxymoron to me. Not for what is entailed to get there, but the act of wanting seems so much more ego bound than just simply doing what is good to do for it's own sake
    I've never seen the using of greed positively to be of much worth in the long run..
    novaw0lflobster
  • novaw0lfnovaw0lf Veteran
    edited January 2013
    @how
    Perhap your biggest attachment may not be that noble Bodhisattva ideal you espouse
    I never said that I espoused any Bodhisattva ideal. I merely had a thought, and some people categorized it as that. Honestly, I didn't even know what a Bodhisattva was until I looked it up after Zombiegirl mentioned it. Other people label me what I may be or may not be. I do not self-proclaim to be anything; I am merely following what I've decided to be my purpose after countless hours of introspection, moments of satori, and being the personal change that I wish to see in the world. Let people doubt, disagree, criticize, or call me whatever they will or won't; these are merely opinions, not fact, and I will not allow opinions alone to alter my way of thinking, no matter how different I may seem.

    I'm not striving to do anything other than what I believe to be the right thing for the sake of the right thing. I'm not striving for congratulations as @lobster and I have already spoke about in a different thread. I am merely who I am, on the path that I chose, -because- I chose it, and that is all. Until I am disproved, I will not change my course; even if one becomes enlightened, it does not mean that the process of learning ever actually stops. Even enlightened people, I believe, can make mistakes. After all, they are just people. I expect nothing for anything I do; in fact, I usually expect to be called derogatory names. Not congratulated. Such is what I'm used to.

    It took me nearly four months to gain the courage to post Gateway, my first poem, on this website. Those who may remember the video, made over a year ago, the very opening words were something along the lines of: "I'm trying to overcome my fear of public audiences." I'm the furthest thing from thinking that I am or could be someone great, this separate entity that you speak of, in reality.
    I am in some agreement with you in that
    wanting Nirvana seems an oxymoron to me. Not for what is entailed to get there, but the act of wanting seems so much more ego bound than just simply doing what is good to do for it's own sake
    I've never seen the using of greed positively to be of much worth in the long run..
    I'm happy that someone sees at least a modicum of what I see. Thanks.
  • andyrobynandyrobyn Veteran
    edited January 2013
    What I see you saying and meaning is not so different from what I understand the Bodhisattva intention to be ( I have never found the Bodhisattva to be a particularly noble approach, I find it rather one based in reality )
  • I've never seen the using of greed positively to be of much worth in the long run..
    :)

    This is the heart of conflict. Too much and we have a fight. Too little and we have endless jawing. Like an instrument, just the right amount of tension in the strings to make music. So conflict is a kind of music or dance. Engage with it skilfully - and harmony. Unskillful . . . a painful cacophony . . .
    We do not have 'greed' for the cessation of suffering. We have skilful right view. I have no greedy desire to be enlightened. I am just here dancing to the beat . . . :clap:
    novaw0lf
  • I dig that.
  • It is worrying, Novawolf, that you can call yourself a Buddhist but do not want Nirvana on the grounds that you would be leaving people behind and be unable to help them. This is topsy turvy and suggests that you don't know what you don't want. You cannot help them without insight, and any idea of undertaking violent action to impose your solution on situations despite a lack of enlightenment and thus insight seems to be arrogance and hubris. When I help people I'm well aware that I may be doing exactly the opposite by accident.

    Most Buddhist vow to become enlightened in order to be able to help others, and the Boddhisatva vow speaks for itself.

    Is it also a slight worry, although consistent with your view of enlightement, that you condone all US wars on the grounds that your leaders are acting in everybody's best interest. On this side of the pond we tend to be less susceptible to such crazy propogandised ideas. It always astonishes me how much trust you guys put in your leaders.

    As to your point that sometimes violence is necesssary, I don't think any Buddhist would disagree with this. They might disgaree with the idea that you know when it is necessary.

    Sorry if this is seems too critical. I feel your view is quite dangerous to yourself and to the people you want to help.

    But it's just an opinion.
    lobster
  • The poem Interrelationship from Thich Nhat Hanh comes to mind for me ... in terms of where I find the focus best to be on ....

    You are me, and I am you.
    Isn't it obvious that we "inter-are"?
    You cultivate the flower in yourself,
    so that I will be beautiful.
    I transform the garbage in myself,
    so that you will not have to suffer.

    I support you;
    you support me.
    I am in this world to offer you peace;
    you are in this world to bring me joy.

  • novaw0lfnovaw0lf Veteran
    edited January 2013
    Florian said:

    Is it also a slight worry, although consistent with your view of enlightement, that you condone all US wars on the grounds that your leaders are acting in everybody's best interest. On this side of the pond we tend to be less susceptible to such crazy propogandised ideas. It always astonishes me how much trust you guys put in your leaders.

    Just that little line right there means that you do not understand me at all. I've made posts titled: "Why I rebeled in the military" and others like "Compassion is Strength" and "Love is Purpose" and "For All Mankind" and "Gateway".

    You think I have faith in my leaders? pfft. You think I condone all war? pfft. I don't mean to offend you, but I stopped reading your post the moment my eyes got to this point. If I had such faith in American leadership and politics...why would I be living in China?


    ...you think I condone -all- war???

    No, I'll tell you what's "worrying" is that I feel as if I'm speaking another language to the majority of you 99% of the time. -That's- what's worrying. You think the person who writes these things condones all war?


    ....really? That's whats saddens me the most, that I see something that many of you clearly do not.
  • novaw0lfnovaw0lf Veteran
    edited January 2013
    I'll say this right now: My favorite part of being American is the fact that I have the right to leave America. So, you can rework that whole distorted concept -you- have of American people, or at least of me. I suggest you go back to the drawing board yourself.

    I'm sorry, but I nearly flipped my lid when I read that line. To hell with the American military.

    I'm not angry with or offended by you; I'm angry with myself for lacking the proper linguistic skill to convey my thoughts in a way for everyone to understand, without me seeming like a damn nutcase.

    I feel like there's a serious language barrier that goes beyond words.
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    You have your work cut out for you.
  • yahhhh.....yah.... *nods*

    Definitely, dude. Definitely.
  • @novaw0lf
    I too was a little surprised when @Florian suggested that you had claimed to support all American wars since I could not recall you having said that. After all, does anyone really support all American wars?
    You aren't that hard to understand.
    andyrobyn
  • novaw0lfnovaw0lf Veteran
    edited January 2013
    robot said:


    You aren't that hard to understand.

    Thanks. I -sincerely- hope not.
    lobster
  • andyrobynandyrobyn Veteran
    edited January 2013
    novaw0lf said:

    robot said:


    You aren't that hard to understand.

    Thanks. I -sincerely- hope not.
    As I said earlier, I do not think you are either nor fail at getting your message across ... any more than the rest of us, that is. Unfortunately, all we have are words most of time - all of the time online.

  • novaw0lfnovaw0lf Veteran
    edited January 2013
    You know what I think the problem is? I think that because of my efforts to remain humble, coupled with your limited perspectives of viewing the person behind the internet identity of “Novaw0lf”, there is a serious gap between those who misunderstand me and doubt in the minds of those who don't misunderstand me.

    The people who misunderstand me seem to think that I “like” war, for what it is. The people who misunderstand me think that because of what they've read about me having a violent past, that my perception of what enlightenment is may be skewed, distorted, or that I have a masochistic urge to be suspended in violence because that's all I know, or that I have some warped interpretation of Buddhism because I served in the military, surrounded by sycophantic and staunch supporters of right-wing American nationalist ideology.

    This is completely wrong. All of it.

    The fact is: it's extremely, extremely rare for a person with my military background to take the eastern approach toward nonviolence; it's almost unheard of. Because of my melodramatic past, a person's psychology usually -is- distorted by lots of bad mental virii that pollutes his way of thinking into leading him down a path of self-destruction—and it was. But the thing is, I'm one of the rare individuals who've been there, done that, and have recovered himself and gained the wisdom years before the prime of his youth has passed.

    I'm one of the rare individuals who've been privileged enough, fortunate enough to have been given a nomad's education, the benefit of having been raised outside of my biological family by wonderful mentors who led me out of the downward spiral of self-destruction very early in life, and gave me the ability to recognize negative stimuli and circumvent it from poisoning my mind before I grew into a full-fledged adult, before my ego was solidified. I am older than my age.

    I believe the person who, toward the beginning of this thread, said that with power comes responsibility, hit the nail on the head. You would be a fool to think that I am hubristically proud of having been trained by SEALs. I know that anywhere else in the world, this would be a badge of badassery, a reason to think that I'm cool or something, but I don't view it that way; I view it as having had an experience that gave me a kind of education and power. And I don't mean “power” in the superhero sense; I mean power in the sense of the actual literary definition.

    For example: If I were to roll a map of a battlefield out before most of you on a table, and ask you that Team A is assaulting Team B, you are outnumbered and on Team B, what could you do to get Team A to back off and bring this situation to close? Most of you of wouldn't be able to answer, because you don't have the experience that I do. But in hypothetical reciprocation, if you were to roll the same map out upon before -me-, I'd be able to say: “Okay, what I'll need is a radio comms guy with access to a MIL STAR satellite via wireless uplink...*here* [marks the map]. I'll need three gunners on the rooftop over...*here* in this corner [marks the map]; equip them with .50 cal rifles so that they they don't need to be as accurate with their shots in the heat of the moment. I need two men here...and one man here....blah blah blah blah blah....and this is how we can win, with minimal losses on both sides.”
    Now if I could have it -my- way, there wouldn't be any fighting -at all-, with NO losses on either side. In fact, there would only be ONE side, not two sides, for we all share this earth together.

    Therein, we are two -very- different breeds of people; this is why I feel like I'm speaking a different language to the majority of you. Very few of you are what Carl Jung would classify as the “warrior” archetype. So if -you- were to say, “Sure! Let's fly into Burma!”

    ...yes....you would indeed be treading along the lines of insanity and recklessness.

    If -I- were to say “Sure! Let's fly into Burma!” I am one of the rare individuals who knows in his heart and can say with assured confidence that if I had a team of the right men and/or women, I actually -would- be able to make a serious difference, or at least, have a much, much higher chance of doing so than the average person.

    This is neither insanity, nor recklessness. Why? Because I am informed, educated, and experienced on the issue and task at hand. Danger is inconsequential, because I am not so attached to this physical body, nor am I obsessed with self-preservation. Yes, I've lived a very hard life, but I am life's conqueror, not it's victim. All of my sad previous experiences have been “...nothing more than a very preparation for this final hour.” -Winston Churchill. My life, my readings, have only conditioned me, not weakened me. Not distorted my vision, but made it clearer, and it becomes ever so clear the more and more I become a master of myself.

    If you were walking down the street and you encounter a woman being sexually assaulted in an alley...and it was -:::::in your power:::::- to save her, would you?

    If you were reading the news and you encounter a civilization of people being assaulted...and it was -::::in your power:::::- to save them, would you?

    I am not a warmonger. I hate war. I abhor war. I am an American, and I say that my own damn country is probably the most corrupted in the world. This is why I left. However, even being the peaceful Buddhist that I am, I cannot deny (no matter HOW much I hate the military) that I was given knowledge and a power from my experiences.

    ...and with power, comes responsibility.

    I love the world, and I don't like seeing people die and get hurt, but I think that we would be naïve and selfish in our pursuits of personal happiness when there are so many out there who don't even know the word “happiness”. What kind of a person would I be if I ascended to nirvana, KNOWING that I had this power to make a difference? It's not like I'm some high school kid who's thinks he knows something about war just because he played Call of Duty a couple times. Am I geek? Hell yeah, but that has nothing to do with actual talent or ability.

    I think that we would be naïve to think that war isn't a natural part of the unenlightened human mind. War is a terrible, ugly, wretched thing. There is nothing to be proud of in being a killer, or one so willing to kill. But we would be as naïve as maiden children if we were to think that war's going anywhere.

    I refer to the book, Cloud Atlas, when I say that though many of us on this forum may be enlightened, we are but a handful, a few drops in an ocean compared to all of those who are not. And though my actions may equate to nothing more than a few drops in this ocean, what is the ocean if but a series of drops? I may go overseas and get shot before I even step off of my plane. I may blow up from a terrorist bombing before I even get a chance to do anything. But that's not the point: the point is, that someone said: Hey, I'm not leaving the world as it is in my own selfish pursuit of happiness, or nirvana. Someone said: There's more to life than procreation; there's something worth fighting for other than money and to quote Alexander the Great “...the things that destroy men.” Someone said: I know that the road I'm choosing to take is going to be a hard one, one that seems to have no end, and when it does end, will probably not have a happy ending. But I'm not afraid of that, because karma is inescapable so long as we are living.

    "Rectitude is the power of deciding upon a certain course of conduct in accordance with reason, without wavering;—to die when it is right to die, to strike when to strike is right." -Nitobe, Inazo (Bushido: the Soul of Japan)

    I think that to pursue nirvana is to run away from what makes us human, at least, before the world is one. To be violent all the time is an unhealthy extreme; to be nonviolent all the time is an unhealthy extreme.

    “He is best of all who of himself conceiveth all things...” -Aristotle

    It is one of the four noble truths in Buddhism that no matter what: we are going to suffer. Yes happiness would be nice...but I would suffer even more inside if I knew that I was the only one enjoying it. Who am I to turn my back on those in need, when it is in my power to help them? If you're nothing more than one of those “fuzzy bunny” Buddhists that @lobster jokes about, then it is not in your power to do the things that I or other enlightened warrior-archetypes can; therefore, it is not your responsibility, and I can't blame you for that. However, if it -is- in your power to help, if you -do- the personality archetype of the warrior or king, then I call anyone who has the power yet would ascend without them: a traitor to all living beings everywhere.

    andyrobyn
  • novaw0lfnovaw0lf Veteran
    edited January 2013
    We would be best suited to help the world wherein our talents, personalities, and experiences suit us best. I am not very experienced with animals; therefore, I will not crusade to end the enslavement of animals. I am not very experienced with volcanology; therefore, I will not crusade to prevent the next volcanic eruption from destroying a part of civilization. I -am-, however, experienced in war, and many things war-like; therefore, I will crusade and do my part to bring whatever wars I can to a peaceful close, if I can, or I will die trying. And when I am reborn...I will try again. And again. And again. And again. Over and over again until human civilization becomes one as a whole, and things like passports are abolished, for there should be no borders separating ourselves from our brothers and sisters overseas. Simply because they have a different skin color, a different culture, a different creed or religion, has no bearing on the fact that we all bleed the same color, breathe the same air, and share the same earth. I will carry on from this life into the next, until there is world peace and war amongst ourselves no longer exists. My cosmic purpose, be it innate or decided, is to aid in the ending of war, -not- its proliferation. To protect life, not to oppress it. To defend, never to attack.

    I'm aware that I can relinquish this attachment, this “purpose” at any time; I can detach, live a peaceful life, and ascend to nirvana. But I'm choosing not to, because there is something within me that will not allow it, a part of my conscience, a whisper from my soul that is willing to fight until -everyone- can live peaceful lives and ascend to nirvana. I know that I will walk a lonely path; this is already apparent in how I'm already misunderstood by the majority of you on this very forum. I am alone in many ways in this, I've always felt so, and that's fine. It hurts, but it's fine.

    There's nothing anyone has said that I haven't already thought about. No derogatory name that you could call me that I haven't already been called. Until I am disproved, I will continue on this path in this life and the next. I may come up with ideas that are disprovable, but my purpose so far remains unchallenged. Criticized, maybe...but unchallenged.

    My only mistake in posting was in forgetting that out of all the psychological archetypes, warriors are very rare in Buddhism. But they exist. I know they exist because I exist. Some people are just built for war and things war-like, but that doesn't mean that we support it blindly.

    Think of me what you will. So sorry if I “Dare to Disagree” with mainstream Buddhist thought.
    andyrobyn
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    All we can rely on in interpreting your posts, is what you post.
  • novaw0lfnovaw0lf Veteran
    edited January 2013
    @vinlyn

    Oh, absolutely. This is why I blame myself, not you guys.
  • warriors are very rare in Buddhism
    In the sense you mean, the kalachakra initiations, the Samurai dominated culture and many other examples would suggest otherwise.

    Most Buddhist are at war with the self, their fellows or their teachers guidance. Once we gain a peaceful acceptance of the 3 jewels and the middle way, in essence we give up our unique experiences and persona. Our unique expression shines through us but is not conflicted or constrained by attachment to its being . . .
    how
  • novaw0lfnovaw0lf Veteran
    edited January 2013
    lobster said:

    warriors are very rare in Buddhism
    Most Buddhist are at war with the self, their fellows or their teachers guidance.

    ....most, not all. I have no quarrel with my teachings, or teachers, and the only inner conflict I have is the yearning for a better love life, for it suffers. It's very hard for a man like me who thinks like I do to maintain a healthy stable relationship with a woman for very long. This, I attribute to being a part of the price that I arbitrarily choose to pay as a karmic consequence. The inner pain I feel is often in extreme loneliness, even though I am aware that loneliness is more so a state of mind; my name itself suggests "lone wolf", and "nova" (or rather a supernova) is a star that burns its brightest....right before it burns out.

    (Not that I'm saying I'm a star...please don't take that too literally.)

    Once we gain a peaceful acceptance of the 3 jewels and the middle way, in essence we give up our unique experiences and persona. Our unique expression shines through us but is not conflicted or constrained by attachment to its being . . .

    Ah, but I have not gained peace. And I know that I have not. I know how, but I choose not to. I think you're having a hard time digesting that.
  • novaw0lfnovaw0lf Veteran
    edited January 2013
    Your version of peace is different than mine. My body and certain aspects of my life may suffer, but my heart will be at peace so long as I know that I am in movement with the ebb and flow of life, my attachment to purpose. So in an unorthodox way, one could say that I -have- attained a kind of peace; I'm doing exactly what I feel is right toward an end that will ultimately lead to nirvana, when I can finally let go...because war and borders are abolished on this planet and there is no longer any reason for people like me to exist.

    "Suffering" so-to-speak, is merely relative, for as long as we live, there will be suffering. At least I'm aware and am taking control of -why- I suffer.
  • Straight_ManStraight_Man Gentle Man Veteran
    novaw0lf said:


    "Suffering" so-to-speak, is merely relative, for as long as we live, there will be suffering. At least I'm aware and am taking control of -why- I suffer.

    Of course there will be suffering while we live. And many will try to end it. As for me, I know I cannot end it (and that to try real hard paradoxically causes suffering), I can merely mitigate it for a small few. Those are my thoughts now.

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