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Questions about Buddhism from the eyes of a skeptic
marcham93
New
Hello everyone. I want to cut to the point and ask my questions, but here is a bit of background info on myself: I grew up in a catholic home and after years of struggling with the "truth", I labelled myself as atheist. Essentially I felt there was no proof for anything supernatural and I would rather follow the evidence put forth by science. Fast forward to today and I, after time and thought, would consider myself more agnostic because I believe theism and atheism are simply too black and white for such a grey question that we know too little about.
While my interest in religion and deities died long ago, I developed a passion for science and philosophy. I enjoyed listening to a few lectures by Allan Watts and decided to look into Buddhism as there was no claim for deities or anything that seemed supernatural, simply a direction for living our lives.
So here are my questions. Does Buddhism contain any "supernatural" content? I am aware that there are no deities, but in reading about Buddha himself, I had heard he saw a vision with the Gods. I'm just a bit confused on where Buddhism sits with this regard.
For example, I find something like "rebirth" hard to grasp, as there is no 100% scientific proof of it. I do understand the concept that we are born from the universe and thus when we die our energy is released and can be reused again, but I think Buddhism is aiming at something a bit more literal, correct?
Summary: Is Buddhism a way of life or are there also supernatural claims? Is there a branch of Buddhism that focuses solely on the philosophy, while not taking into consideration ideas that may be considered supernatural?
Thanks and I hope my questions is semi-clear.
-Mike
While my interest in religion and deities died long ago, I developed a passion for science and philosophy. I enjoyed listening to a few lectures by Allan Watts and decided to look into Buddhism as there was no claim for deities or anything that seemed supernatural, simply a direction for living our lives.
So here are my questions. Does Buddhism contain any "supernatural" content? I am aware that there are no deities, but in reading about Buddha himself, I had heard he saw a vision with the Gods. I'm just a bit confused on where Buddhism sits with this regard.
For example, I find something like "rebirth" hard to grasp, as there is no 100% scientific proof of it. I do understand the concept that we are born from the universe and thus when we die our energy is released and can be reused again, but I think Buddhism is aiming at something a bit more literal, correct?
Summary: Is Buddhism a way of life or are there also supernatural claims? Is there a branch of Buddhism that focuses solely on the philosophy, while not taking into consideration ideas that may be considered supernatural?
Thanks and I hope my questions is semi-clear.
-Mike
2
Comments
Both. The core of Buddhism is about a way of life and understanding that leads to a better well being. The metaphysics and cosmology of Buddhism do contain many supernatural aspects. There is no requirement to believe in any of them or have blind faith in them in order to get your Buddhist card and decoder pin, but they are certainly there.
It may interest you that there is a secular Buddhism that has developed in the west, that just focuses on the practical, provable aspects of the teachings.
http://secularbuddhism.org/
Sorry. Buddhism has "deities".
Sorry. There's no 100% scientific proof for or against.
Yes, most mainstream Buddhist teachings endorse "literal" rebirth.
Sorry. Stop right there.
It's pointless to pusue Buddhismn. You don't have a sufficiently open heart for it. You certainly can pick and choose what you want from Buddhism, but there's a point at which it simply isn't Buddhism any more - it's just "Buddhist" but then there's already a lot of that out there already.
I actually found a book on Amazon, "Confessions of a Buddhist Atheist", that I might pickup.
At some point you must, inevitably, take it on faith.
Buddhism is as chocked full of the supernatural as any religion.
It is a human trait to embellish the unknown when unwilling to face whatever it is within it that we fear.
A religion is just a group of folks trying to fortify their ethereal identity amidst a chaos that doesn't.
I could, with hubris, advise you of what Buddhist School looks like plain, unadulterated truth for me but isn't this your job to explore?
While some folks fear the supernatural, others fear it's absence, whereas much of Buddhism is about how to be fearless facing either..
Many Christian priests are atheists. :eek:
Strange but true.
In a similar way we start Buddhism from where we are and use its practical tools to explore suffering or stress and its alleviation.
Everything else is smoke and mirrors of the stressed out, indulgences of the ignorant and general purpose pragmatism, social integration, stories for children and ex Hindus or integration with prevailing cultures.
The core of Buddhism is what you do with it and what it can do for you. As such it is limitless but limited by those monkey minded trouble makers aka people.
Now you will have to excuse me as I am off to Buddha Heaven to tell the future Buddha he does not exist . . .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tushita
http://www.stephenbatchelor.org/index.php/en/rebirth-a-case-for-buddhist-agnosticism
I just love the philosophy behind Buddhism.
Thanks!
I tried. I even made fun of the car he drives.
Water off a duck's back.
Try and drop your hang-ups about deities or superstitions and rebirth. Although rebirth does play a fairly major role in Buddhism, it's not (IMO) necessary to subscribe to it (at least not at first) in order to begin to practice Buddhism and learn what it's really about.
I would say start with the basics, meditate a bit, and build that fundamental core. Then re-evaluate if what you feel about "superstitions" and "deities" really matters.
It's not like once you say you want to practice Buddhism, you're in it for life. Stop trying to rationalize what are essentially accessories in a religious practice - something which is not 100% rational anyway. Just practice and then see what you think. Maybe you'll find that the existence or non-existence of superstition or deities doesn't really matter to your practice anyway.
He also taught about gods or devas and ghosts/peta and
the hell realm.
sorry to disappoint you.
Meditation, however one practices it (and there are hundred of ways) has become the core of my practice. I don't have a single Buddha whatsit in my house but I did start lighting a candle for meditation about a month ago and find that very very helpful
The core teachings of this guy Siddhartha Gautama (no one is sure of anything but his surname) were the fact of suffering and it's cessation. I try to stick to that, first. I meditate using techniques described by the Buddha (as translated and unpacked by various people) and am having direct, personal experiences that line up with the cessation of suffering which is the whole point. I may have even had supernatural experiences but I'm not sure if I'd know them if I saw them, but my mind is open. Whether I believe in them or not is really, really irrelevant. It's working. The Buddha was onto something. Most comforting, to me, is he encouraged us to prove it to ourselves (within reason).
Human beings proliferate 'religion' around great and mysterious truths. I see the religious trappings of the major 'vehicles' as frills and furbelows that accumulate as the Dharma moves through cultures and times. At first I considered them useless and distractions from 'the real teachings'. Now I have a lot more respect for things I know nothing about
Explore! You'll hear everything from 'forget commandments and rules' to 'you'll be reborn as a house fly if you kill one'. Just explore, listen, take it in and RELAX. If you 'do it wrong' you'll know soon enough if your intention is sincere. All the action is inside YOU, that's where everything is happening, and you have plenty of room to figure it out as you go. Millions would deeply disagree with me and they are as sincere as I am. We're out to end suffering here, just keep that in mind, and if you are reasonable and sincere, the rest will follow.
Gassho
Orthodox, institutional Buddhism doesn't do try to restrict itself to the scientifically demonstrable, but if you don't mind being a heterodox, individual practicioner, then Buddhism has enough in it to be a potentially worthwhile project. That line of thought (that Zen is somehow already secular) came from DT Suzuki who wanted to make Zen Buddhism relevant to the modern world. He didn't tell westerners that before DT Suzuki, Zen has/had all the supernatural of a typical religion. If you join an official institution, yes. FWBO, all the monasteries, etc, generally expect members to toe the party line which includes the supernatural. I get around that by not joining an orthodox institution. He was doing (metaphorical) battle with misery. From 2500 years away, it looks like he had a serious bout of depression and he solved it and came up with a solution that would help other people, depressed or not. [I'm sure I'm projecting.]
He was not doing battle with Hinduism and Hindu cosmology (which wasn't Hindu cosmology then,it was just cosmology-- the didn't differentiate between science and religion back then). When Sigmund Freud created his theory of psychology, he wasn't going to try to also overturn or create a theory of the big bang. It isn't relevant to psychology. The historical Buddha just accepted the cosmology of the time. Nargajuna tried to say that their Annihilationism (we die, the end) and eternalism (we keep coming back *forever*) are both bunk. But I don't grok the 3rd option. I think most secular Buddhists are Annihilationists and think eternalism is bunk. It is a way of life. You can sign up for membership in a group with expectations to believe the super natural. Secular Buddhism, Modern Buddhism and "Critical Buddhism" generally don't entail much supernatural. Punk Rock Zen Buddhism has a certain secular feel to it. The entire mindfulness movement is Buddhism without the B-word. Capital B Buddhists seem to think mindfulness is an incomplete 1 fold path without ethics.
The next question you will have to answer for yourself is what practices are of use to a secular Buddhist?
Mantras-- bogus magic or a good way to squash extraneous thoughts/focus on a theme?
Mahayana sutras-- superstitious nonsense or a wise message packaged in a fiction?
Boddhisatvas-- fake gods or a convenient way to discuss human qualities worth emulating?
Precepts-- bogus rules written by sexist men or recipes for a lifestyle that leads to peace?
Anatman and Sunyata-- mystical contradictions or antidotes to the automatic mental models that exacerbate our misery?
Merit-- insincere, two faced social climbing or the logical next step after metaphysical realizations about anatman and sunyata?
Pure lands and hell -- attempts to *force* you to obey your earthly masters or rhetorical devices describing states of mind, states of this mundane world?
Here's someone trying to make sense of the world and you are turning him off and away because of ill-conceived ideas.
don't expect everyone here to disagree
rather see them as humans
just like you and me
4NT
8FP
None the less it IS a good example of 8 helpful areas of attention.
Experienced meditators spend 10's of thousands of hours looking into their own minds. That level of focus and attention heightens ones introspective ability. Alan Wallace makes the analogy of the refined introspection of an experienced meditator as being like an astronomer looking through a telescope and our everyday attention as being like trying to stargaze through a telescope on the back of a moving camel walking through a sandstorm.
My point is only that meditation developed as a means to understand and develop one's own psychology not from a third person behavioral aspect but instead from the point of view of the direct inner experience. Techniques and methods have been tested and refined and found to work for centuries. So there is an alternate method of proving certain things for those willing to put in the time.
I have faith in buddhism, because I have verified it.
You can take the approach that most it's metaphorical. As in the Bardo teachings, if you prefer to think of the different realms as psychological states or ways of dealing with life, that's fine ....
As for the lack of evidence for rebirth, well its up to you. Perhaps that is somewhat metaphorical too. Maybe not NPR - Searching for Science Behind Reincarnation. Maybe both, maybe neither....
Anyhow ... Could be that our best science is now saying nothing exists, go figure Structural Realism :scratch: :scratch:
I thank everyone for responding and after doing a bit of "searching" the past few days I personally have stumbled upon Secular Humanism and I really am identifying with it. The nice aspect of Humanism is that it reflects upon the positive moral teachings of others (such as Buddha) without concern for circumstances surrounding the teachings.
So I think that will be it for me.. secular humanism, but I will read more into Buddha's teachings because I do feel a bit of a connection with the ideas.
Thanks!
In addition, if there's things you find interesting about Buddhism, then add it in. Meditation might be a good thing and there are places where you can learn to do it properly where the religious/Buddhist aspects of the practice are kept to a minimum.
If you're skeptical, then move on. No sense getting into something where you have to fight with yourself over whether or not there's a right or wrong to it. Life's too short. You'll either believe in it or you won't. You won't be able to "make" yourself believe anything. Better to go with your gut.
"Now, Kalamas, one who is a disciple of the noble ones — his mind thus free from hostility, free from ill will, undefiled, & pure — acquires four assurances in the here-&-now:
"'If there is a world after death, if there is the fruit of actions rightly & wrongly done, then this is the basis by which, with the break-up of the body, after death, I will reappear in a good destination, the heavenly world.' This is the first assurance he acquires.
"'But if there is no world after death, if there is no fruit of actions rightly & wrongly done, then here in the present life I look after myself with ease — free from hostility, free from ill will, free from trouble.' This is the second assurance he acquires.
Regardless if there is or is not rebirth, the practice(which consists of more then just meditation but also morality which combine to create wisdom) brings forth a skillful life lived.
In terms of mythology, rites and rituals, I had initially heard of buddhism through the Dalai lama and Tibetan Buddhism but I think because of what I saw as a lot of mythology and rituals, I did not fully give myself to the Buddhist practice until I found Theravada.
I thought to myself..ah! Now this is the real deal, no silly stuff and the oldest most orthodox teachings closest to the Buddha. Lo and behold I start reading the suttas and go to monasteries and what do I see? Mythology, rites, and rituals... devas and yhakkas and brahmas oh my!
Granted mythology, rites and rituals have much less importance in Theravada but they are still there. All of the mythological creature in the pali suttas come to learn from the Buddha like we would, they hold very little importance to us really, and no importance at all regarding the practice. I also like how the monastics live in Theravada, totally dependant on the lay people final a sort of symbiotic relationship that the Buddha put into place 2600 years ago. These are some of the reasons why I am a proponent of the Theravada over modern/secular. I'm not a huge fan of secular type Buddhisms because they seem to lack so much of the teaching that is important, kind of like throwing the baby out with the bathwater.. dhamma practice is so much more.
It's up to you to find your own path and practice though, no one knows that path better then you. It also doesn't hurt to visit and learn from various traditions. I have done Mahayana retreats as a Theravadan for example. At the very least it helps the breaking down of the ego and the "this view is better than that view" mentality the ego loves.
to myself. I studied and practiced buddhist teachings for about 40 years now. I was a born and raised roman katholic and i knew that there is something wrong. I discussed with priests and we couldn´t agree in any case. Nowbody could convince me that there is a beyond, aheaven. It´s just not possible to prove this empiricly.
By going deeper and deeper into Pali-Canon i realized i realized that they suppose the same as the r-k do. But there is a difference Gotamo Buddho accepts the theses that the beyond can not be proofen by scientific means. He say something very beatiful
about that:"If ther is no beyond and you lived the rules you harmed other iving beings less. But if there is a beyond you have won twice. You didn´t harm other living beings and you could enter the brahamic planes. Yöu can win going deep into buddhist livelyhood. I dont´t knoe if the Chan-buddhists have any kind of deitis but i know that the Theravada people don´t believe in beyond and deitis.They have their materialistic point of view and their last step is nibbanam.
In PaliCanon, especially in the Dighanikayo, there is a saying about the four gods of the world and the council of the 33 gods. But the greatest of all of them is Brahma.
The first time, Gotamo Buddho had contact with Brahma, was the point when he was thinking that the knowledge he aquired should not be spread to people, because they
wouldn´t understand it. Then Brahma came to him and asked to tell others because there might be some people, being able to understand, and they would be worth it.
There is supernatural content and they are calle the seven mighty, magic powerplanes:
Bilocation, walking on water, seeing other peoples former life as well the own one.
You can travel wherever you want to, in a spiritual way.
I fone doesn´t know the circumstances of buddhist Genesis, one might also not understand reincarnation. Pali-Canon says that at the cosmis events of worls clashing together, lightbeings escaped from there and left for earth, ate the sweet sea food and accumulated more and more matter. So they became the suffering humans, because the matter they were now was steadily changig and causing suffering.
So we are the aliens.
Because of this suffering Gotamo Buddho found a way out of it. The Eightfold Path.
Doing this 8fold path intensely you can enter the lower brahmaic planes. Brahma is
lot´s of categories bigger than the humans but he was a lightbeing to, but didn´t accumulate this materia. But humans and Brahma are similar.
I could have waited if there would be found any scientific proof of thes thesis.
But Gotamo Buddho had a quite scientific method. He said that, you go into the meditation and come out the same as you were before. All thes mediations are only
exercises und nonideological, not explaning the worlds of matter.
Gotamo Buddho was quite liberal, to nearly every thesis, there is a exception being made: You shouldn´t have sex any more but if you can´t hold it back any more, better don´t do it with a married woman.
Buddhist teaching is no way of life, it´s the way out of all Life-circles.
The only one not believing into supernatural events are the Theravadas.
At least: The teaching of Gotamo Buddho has proven to be right by millions of people, so also for myself. I went the path to where there are no ways any more.
anando
You can follow the 4 Noble Truths and Eightfold Noble Path and not be a Buddhist. I suggest @marcham93 does this until he/she can resolve his/her issues with Buddhist teachings.
In metta,
Raven
For example, some people think that Buddhists worship Buddha as a deity.
:wow:
Which is what some might assume if they didn't look a little deeper into it.
Dharmakaya is when we don't know. And we are open minded because no sense has been made. Nirmanakaya is when we see some kind of sense some kind of clarity where we can make sense of the situation. Samboghakaya is some kind of creativity to bridge Dharmakaya and Nirmanakaya. We need a link between the uncertainty of dharmakaya and the clarity of nirmanakaya. Svahbavikakaya (4th kaya) is understanding the whole thing, total panoramic experience.
these four are always going on in our minds. We can take it as a mind protection to notice these four features as the nature of confusion.
~from Trungpa Rinpoche, cobbled together by me, on the lojong teachings.
in buddhst teaching there a lot of superatural occasions mentioned. At first there is
a here and a beyound and a reward for good an one for bad deeds, this is concerning Karma. After habing changed your consciousness, there are two more instances you can go to: Maro Dusi and Brahma. There are also the seven magic powers.
Living is suffering and the meaning of buddhism ist, that you collect enough Karma so
you are not being reincarnated again.
There is nöo such meaning to lead a hipp-happy life, but to use this vey one life to make an end. There are certain stairs you can approach. The last one is the best one.
I do agree, that the fundament opinion of buddhist teaching is, that there were some
cosmic events that brought the lightbeings to eart and after gathering materia they
became humans. In Christian and Busshist teaching they agre on the fact that Brahma,God and humns are similar, with a bit of higher or lower form of this similarity.
Christian teching is very much influeced by buddhist teaching. You can ealize that if you´ve been both teachings. Buddhism is the only teaching that telle you, that you can have the ability, being on both sides in the same time or experience them seperately.
But no other teching is giving you the ability to enter the beyond being alife.
anando
The Kalama Sutra explains that pretty well, as quoted above. *But* that means that you need to be open minded enough to let go of all your preconceived ideas about anything, because Buddhism isn't a place where a mind closed to possibilities thrives. Especially the things you feel strongest about. Holding onto views with a death grip just doesn't work. That means being open to even the possibilities our science cannot yet explain...think of all the things science figured out in the last 100 years and how wrong the people before that were, and you might get an idea how wrong we probably are about a lot of the things we don't know yet. No sense in applying limits before you start, or there isn't much sense in starting.
You may not understand rebirth. I don't understand how a car works but I drive one anyway. Who cares how a car works and who cares if there is rebirth. Just live right and that's the middle way.
There should be many branches of Buddhists. Which branch/es suit/s you? Just sit on that branch until you are ready for the next level.