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Isn't it mentioned in Pali scriptures that there are seven or such planes aka heavens. Highest heaven is superior as compared to below planes.
Those who reach heaven may again downfall when effect of punya is over.
The Buddha is said to be non returner to this low level life. He is liberated completely.
Sonapatti are those who will make progress forward in Dhamma and surely get liberation at least within 7 rebirths.
When I was new to Buddhist reading. I did also sometimes feel that Buddha comes in our though in real . But as per sources and definition of Buddha, he is not taking rebirth again. Those Buddha said to arrive as per Mahayana might be different not the Siddhartha.
Siddhartha Buddha might be guiding us if we are producing frequencies which is asking for his blessings to grow in Dhamma.
Id asume he would be like the Buddha still on earth listening to the Dharma and teaching us. I believe in spirits and I would not be surprised if according to Buddhist thought (say Theravada) this is correct.
In spirits I also believe and have experienced them.
There are bhut preta also which do not able to take rebirth in body form as animals due to intense negative vibrations and wonders known as ghosts. They takes birth in animal form after there craving ends.
The parts of "us" that make up thought and memory disappear when we die, just like our bodies. They are just as temporary and unreal. They do not carry onward. What does, it seems, is a very basic amount of information, our karma (and perhaps parts of our deepest consciousness, though that isn't really the word I would choose).
I always liked a quote I read in a fictional book once:
"Belief is not required. A leaf does not have to believe in photosynthesis to turn green. You will reincarnate whether you believe in it or not." (it was not a Buddhist book)
That quote put me at ease about the problem of after-death. It just doesn't matter. What is going to happen will happen no matter how much time I spend pondering it right now. And no matter what I believe. It makes some kind of sense to me that what happens in this life could affect the next life. But I don't know how, and it is too far away (whether it is in 10 minutes or 60 years) for me to worry about it. I worry more how my actions, good and bad, affect what is happening in the world right now. Worrying about whether my poor actions will affect my rebirth seems silly, considering I obviously have immediate consequences to deal with for my poor actions right now.
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CarlitaBastian please! Save us!United StatesVeteran
I interpreted the OP as asking what happens to an enlightened person once they die, so I was attempting to answer that specific question rather than rebirth for the rest of us.
Thank you.
Guys. Thats what Im asking, not about our rebirth as unlightened people.
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DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
edited February 2016
I'm completely agnostic when it comes to how rebirth would work. In a sense I think it happens to us all the time (as we change) but it's not really the same as rebirth after death.
It makes sense that we are recycled and I figure our state after death is probably pretty close to or the same as our state before we were born.
I tend to think our karma continues because even once a person has died, the wheels set in motion continue.
I do not believe karma from this life will haunt the next or dictate where I go because I will have evaporated or dissipated or something and will not go anywhere in particular.
During my life however, my actions will not only affect this individual but any individual in their path. It makes me wonder if rebirth happens on a linear scale where individuals are reborn as individuals or if every individual is really an expression of our true nature being reborn.
I have a few ideas on how it could all work but I don't bother having faith in them or believing they're true.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
I wouldn't have a clue as to how to even begin to answer that question.
The simple facts are that we, as live people, cannot know, and they, as dead enlightened people, cannot tell....!
I think you are having a hard time getting answers because it really is a vast question. Remember Buddha isn't a person but a manifestation in a human body. When that body dies, what happens to the "stream" that normally would be reborn is hard to even contemplate. Some believe it returns to the source/creation. Some believes it just disperses like steam when you open a pot, because it is part of everything and goes back to everything. Some believe they become some hall of hallowed buddhas sitting up there as we pray to them. Some believe they become a source of intelligence no longer manifested but available for us to tap into. In mahayana of course, the ideal is to put off that attainment and continue to be reborn in order to help other people.
I think it is so hard to relate to because living in this realm, we have concrete understandings. Full realization is on the ultimate level. There is no being or stream to die or become englightened so upon the death of an enlightened manifestation, there is nothing to ponder that has died/ceased. It is where it is realized that none of this exists, that it is illusion, that nothing happens or is happening now. This is why it is so hard to grasp, because we do not have words to talk about something that isn't, lol. We can't understand it in our logical and orderly fashion because there is nothing to understand. But our human brains can't wrap around that very well.
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DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
edited February 2016
@federica said:
I wouldn't have a clue as to how to even begin to answer that question.
The simple facts are that we, as live people, cannot know, and they, as dead enlightened people, cannot tell....!
I only try because I think it's fun but those simple facts do keep me grounded in agnosticism.
Still... My karma may not just be my karma.
I may not be aware of somebody slipping on my discarded banana peel and may not feel suffering for it in the slightest but they maybe just helped someone out, turned around and cracked their head open because of my ignorance.
Oh well, speaking of which I have to shovel the sidewalk.
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CarlitaBastian please! Save us!United StatesVeteran
@karasti said:
I think you are having a hard time getting answers because it really is a vast question. Remember Buddha isn't a person but a manifestation in a human body. When that body dies, what happens to the "stream" that normally would be reborn is hard to even contemplate. Some believe it returns to the source/creation. Some believes it just disperses like steam when you open a pot, because it is part of everything and goes back to everything. Some believe they become some hall of hallowed buddhas sitting up there as we pray to them. Some believe they become a source of intelligence no longer manifested but available for us to tap into. In mahayana of course, the ideal is to put off that attainment and continue to be reborn in order to help other people.
Wow. I can see why that is hard to relate. I also didnt know the Buddha isnt a real person. What Id assume as seemd to be in the the Lotus sutra but dont know about Pali, is his wisdom or Law lives on but he, as a person, doesnt live so. The author translate it as extinction. What I believe is that our family lives in each of us; so, we know our family through our family before. Id assume that is how maybe a Buddhist would see it: knowing the Law-the sutras from the Budhas before sense we are in a sense one. The Buddha didnt separate himself from others in that respect.
He, Siddartha Guatama, was as real a person as any of us are. But a Buddha isn't a person in that same respect. At least that is how I have been taught so far, but my teacher is a Vajrayana teacher so like any differences in schools, I'm sure there is plenty. And since none of us knows, lol
"I entered into a small village. A little boy was carrying a candle, a lit candle, obviously going to the small temple of the town to put the candle there for the night.
And Junaid asked, "Can you tell me from where the light comes? You have lighted the candle yourself so you must have seen. From where does the light come? What is the source of light?"
The boy laughed and he said, "Wait!" And he blew out the candle in front of Junaid. And he said, "You have seen light gone. Can you ten me where it has gone? If you can tell me where it has gone I will tell you from where it has come, because it has gone to the same place. It has returned to the source."
@Carlita said: It isnt. I like to ponder. I feel its alright to ask questions that I know has no concrete answers.
Of course it's alright. That's pretty much a definition of being on a spiritual path.
I'm not sure I agree that it is..... While I acknowledge that occasionally it's good to consider points to ponder, sometimes, it's best to quit what essentially boils down to wasting time, and instead focus on concrete practice.
Wisdom consists of knowing when to give up on the imponderable/unanswerable, and return to 'sitting' - and all that entails, of course.....
Those kinds of big questions often lead people to a spiritual or religious path-for the comfort that comes in getting some kind of answer (for most, not everyone). If you spend too much time pondering you aren't really making any progress in any direction though. You're just letting the wheels in your mind spin in place.
.... and especially when one ponders over issues which have no impact whatsoever in one's practice.
How many realms exist, devas, what happens to Tathagata after death...
Deepening one's practice of the N8P and bodhicitta are consuming enough.
In my opinion, of course.
Our mind's chatter is enough of a nuisance as it is.
I personally prefer to subtract and empty my cup, rather than add more clutter to an already oveflowing teapot.
@federica said:> Wisdom consists of knowing when to give up on the imponderable/unanswerable, and return to 'sitting' - and all that entails, of course.....
I don't disagree, but telling people that they shouldn't think about the big questions is usually unproductive. I've been leading a Buddhist group since 2007 and this is one of the first lessons I had to learn.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
I never said they shouldn't. I just said it's wise to know when to think, and it's wise to know when to stop.
And I disagree with you, that asking questions 'with no concrete answers' is 'pretty much a definition of being on a spiritual path'.
I personally think a better definition of being on a Spiritual path is to ask the right questions, and THEN ponder the answers.
@Carlita said: It isnt. I like to ponder. I feel its alright to ask questions that I know has no concrete answers.
Of course it's alright. That's pretty much a definition of being on a spiritual path.
I'm not sure I agree that it is..... While I acknowledge that occasionally it's good to consider points to ponder, sometimes, it's best to quit what essentially boils down to wasting time, and instead focus on concrete practice.
Wisdom consists of knowing when to give up on the imponderable/unanswerable, and return to 'sitting' - and all that entails, of course.....
In my opinion.
Many who ponder are not stressed or obsessed with questions they ask themselves sometimes and on a religious forum. For example, I have other issues that my friend is going through and wondering about rebirth takes my mind in a new place where like the Buddha find insight in the nature of life. Learning about suffering and the other Truths isnt a mathematical process. The Buddha pondered to and he was of age and wise.
We may not agree and find it a waste of time others find it very helpful. It let us come out of the box. The boddhisatvas kept asking questions. The Buddha had to reasure them of answers they already knew. The Buddha pondered about how to help others in the manner of their suffering.
Pondering is healthy not a waste of time.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
I think it's completely normal and healthy as a human being to ponder things great and small, whether they are logically answerable or not. I have "answers" to a lot of big questions in that I have arrived at a place that is comfortable to me about them, but it doesn't mean I have a logical and provable answer or solution. Nor does it mean that my position on them doesn't get evaluated and change frequently.
But when you start to look at it from a place of Buddhist practice, perhaps the answer (to whether pondering is worthwhile or not) changes a bit. We are trying to get out of our heads and into the moment. Pondering inevitably involves a strong focus (and sometimes even obsession) on the future, which isn't something, as Buddhists, that we tend to encourage.
But, by definition it is something we usually do to arrive at a conclusion or a decision. If there is no conclusion or decision to be made, is pondering truly worthwhile? I wonder what the high level teachers ponder, or if they do. It seems unlikely to me. It is very much being stuck in your head, even if it is a healthy, logical human practice on one level.
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DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
edited February 2016
@karasti hit the nail on the head there and I'm hoping it was on purpose.
Pondering isn't so bad (as long as we aren't supposed be be doing something but would rather daydream), it's the conjecturing that screws us over.
Leaving it open and looking at possibilities is one thing but forming a conclusion based on the one that suits us best is where we set ourselves up for the falls.
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CarlitaBastian please! Save us!United StatesVeteran
edited February 2016
But how can pondering be a waste of time? Thats like telling a writer not to ponder over what to write "as well as" writing. Or telling a painter not to gleam at his own work "while" he is painting. Its like telling a sports player not to ponder if hed make the big shot even if he was not able to more than he is able but not making it impossible.
Its taking the child out of the adult. As if adults have more logic than a child with whom sees things natually without yet Over analyzing (not ponder) if one puzzle piece should go here are there. He tries. He ponders. He doesnt obsess. Its not a Huge issue.
Some adults are afraid to be children. I mean, what would The Buddha say if we told him we reached the age of wisdom we dont have to think anymore?
This poet's brain is not clicking with this guys
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personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
I think it depends somewhat on the tradition. Some have a greater focus on learning and developing a certain view, while others focus more on taming the mind and developing qualities.
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CarlitaBastian please! Save us!United StatesVeteran
@person said:
I think it depends somewhat on the tradition. Some have a greater focus on learning and developing a certain view, while others focus more on taming the mind and developing qualities.
Controling the "monkey mind"? (Thats not in the sutra, right? Cant remember where thats from)
I don't think that we shouldn't think. Sometimes we have to figure things out so we have to think about them. Nothing wrong with that. But a lot of people tend to be really attached to their thoughts and beliefs about them and our thoughts about "inponderables" tend to go in circles over and over again. Of course we think. That is what our brains are designed to do. We're not trying to get rid of that process, but rather to fine tune it. Just because certain things might be human tendencies doesn't mean we should just give into them without considering why we do it.
I think it's just a difference in how we're seeing the topic. I am about as logical brained as you can get, lol. Creativity and art isn't something that my brain does well, so I think we're just seeing it from different views. I want to know the whys and hows of everything. So I am constantly stopping to think "whoa, where did that thought come from?" and things like that. I observe my thoughts a lot, even in my dreams. I ponder things. A neighbor lady died today so I have been pondering the death process. But for me, pondering is generally done to arrive at something, to confirm or correct understandings. And when I get to a point that I realize what I am thinking about it's answerable or I'm going in circles, I evaluate that, and I stop. Not every question my brain churns out needs an answer or needs me to spend a bunch of time thinking about what I think about it.
@Carlita said:
I like to ponder. I feel its alright to ask questions that I know has no concrete answers.
Reminds me of the zen koan practice and Hua Tou questions like "what was your face before your parents were born?" etc, etc. In some sects of Buddhism this pondering or questioning, or whatever you want to call it, has a long tradition of being a primary practice method.
Yes, koans might be an ideal practice for you @Carlita. Their purpose is to break down your set thought patterns and beliefs to be completely open to what comes up. You don't find the "answers" to them like you do a riddle or by going in circles.
For me, I guess what I realized is that when I ponder these kinds of questions (not koans, but just in general), it is not usually because I am trying to break something down or be open to something else. Usually it is a form of entertainment and those kinds of thoughts are the exact habits I am trying to break - the things that endlessly distract and entertain me in my head.
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CarlitaBastian please! Save us!United StatesVeteran
I usee to practice Zen and havent really looked too much into koans. I didnt have a good impression of them in my practice at the time. Now, its more study, meditate, and pray. Studying helps me know Im not blind in an open area trying to find walls. Meditation keeps me open to what I study and that its not static as my culture bas taught. I dont know if other Buddhist schools pray. I will take a look at the koans.
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CarlitaBastian please! Save us!United StatesVeteran
@karasti said:
I don't think that we shouldn't think. Sometimes we have to figure things out so we have to think about them. Nothing wrong with that. But a lot of people tend to be really attached to their thoughts and beliefs about them and our thoughts about "inponderables" tend to go in circles over and over again. Of course we think. That is what our brains are designed to do. We're not trying to get rid of that process, but rather to fine tune it. Just because certain things might be human tendencies doesn't mean we should just give into them without considering why we do it.
I think it's just a difference in how we're seeing the topic. I am about as logical brained as you can get, lol. Creativity and art isn't something that my brain does well, so I think we're just seeing it from different views. I want to know the whys and hows of everything. So I am constantly stopping to think "whoa, where did that thought come from?" and things like that. I observe my thoughts a lot, even in my dreams. I ponder things. A neighbor lady died today so I have been pondering the death process. But for me, pondering is generally done to arrive at something, to confirm or correct understandings. And when I get to a point that I realize what I am thinking about it's answerable or I'm going in circles, I evaluate that, and I stop. Not every question my brain churns out needs an answer or needs me to spend a bunch of time thinking about what I think about it.
I respect that. Hmm. Everytime I hear someone say they arent creative, I hear a pin drop in the background.
Its all good.
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DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
I think "imponderable" is a misleading and possibly harmful translation.
When washing dishes, pondering unanswerable questions is wasting valuable time that could be spent being with the washing.
When pondering unanswerable questions, just try not to attach to any conclusion.
Buddha warned about conjecture, not mulling over possibilities.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
Imponderable, to me, is 'what does the edge of the universe look like? Can we prove it's infinite?'
And the questions that the Buddha himself stated were unconjecturable.
Those kinds of questions - I don't bother with. He told me himself it's pointless, and I'm already enough of a noodle-head already without adding to the mix!
Possibilities? if I can't find an answer within a reasonable sapce of time, that too gets laid by the wayside.
I have a finite time left to me in this life.
I'm not going to waste it dolly-daydreaming about things which essentially would mean "well, that's half an hour I'll never get back!"
This is why, for example, I only have 30 friends on facebook, and I visit it once or twice a week.
"Who are we after our bodies die?"
-It seems to me, among other things, we are the sum total of our good works, or lack thereof...
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DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
I couldn't imagine not pondering the wonders of the universe. A life without pondering unanswerable questions would bore me to no end.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
Maybe you should get out more...
That was a joke.
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CarlitaBastian please! Save us!United StatesVeteran
edited February 2016
Not pondering to me is like being in the woods, lost on a path, and giving up because there is no reason to ponder if there is a way out.
Ponderers in the same woods would keep walking the path and pass the non ponderer thinking "this could go here. Maybe can go there. It may not lead to a concrete answer. I may be wondering for my whole life. But, he looks back at the non ponderer standing still, there is nothing wrong with standing still, he convinces himself, but how can you see the beautiful scenary, ponder the ends of the road, Not searching for enlightenment...but being the enlightenment soon if one doesnt go anywhere.
He thinks: " 'Should' I go back?" What would happen if I did? Would I be able to turn back around? Are these questions a waste of my time? Then he sees The Buddha along side him and other Buddhas. The Buddha says "go back. Stand with him"
"But he isnt going anywhere Lord"
"Its okay. Not all people want to journey by walking."
"But thats how you did it. You didnt anaylze how to help people from suffering. You didnt draw on a chalk board the process of suffering" he shifted "you pondered the meaning of life. The questions most dont want to ask...maybe because they are afraid? Feel its a foregone conclusion? But not you Lord. You kept pondering until you found the answer. Then you pondered more through various analogies teaching the monks the Way."
The Buddha disappeared. The man went back and still saw the other standing still.
"Why did you come back" the other said.
"Because The Buddha said we are to help people from suffering. I know I dont see you suffer physically, for some reason there is something I have to say"
"And what is that?" The other says.
"You cant reach enlightenment and help those who suffer by standing still."
I think the woods analogy is difficult because there is a decision to be made here, regardless of which of many you might choose. You will ponder a way out of a situation so you don't die (or get more lost). There is a conclusion to be had and a decision to be made, even if the decision is "I''m not sure about this way, but I'm willing to find out." So you go that way and that's the end. To me, pondering would be choosing to go that way, and then spending hours or longer pondering what might have been if you went the other way or did nothing at all. Pondering for answers, solutions, decisions, conclusions, sure. Of course. Pondering "what ifs" not so much.
@Carlita I shouldn't really say I am uncreative. It's just that my brain doesn't work in the way it seems to in people who are creative. My sister is quite creative, she is a chef and a writer. Her way of thinking and approaching problems is very different from me. She has a vast imagination and daydreams a lot about things that haven't happened or will never happen or things that she should have done different 20 years ago. Imagination has a place, I'm not saying it doesn't. Without it we'd not have Harry Potter or Narnia or any other number of fantastic journeys of the mind. Just my brain doesn't work that way, lol.
Some people say "I wonder...what if I tried this?" and then they try it. That kind of pondering is definitely good. I do this a lot when I cook, lol.
Some people say "I wonder......" and never go farther than that. That is the type I think isn't necessarily good to do in circles, over and over, for lengths of time.
But I will set something down and walk away (in my mind) rather than wonder it in circles when I can't find an answer at that time, or there is no answer.
If anyone responds in a way that suggests you could think differently, especially if it is a point made by using the Buddhist scriptures or teachings, you tend to say things along the lines of "it's all just labels", "this doesn't apply to me".
It is also clear your spiritual practice is, to say the least, eclectic. You "pick and choose" from any tradition that takes your fancy -- a very modern approach, but one where the result often seems to be a very superficial understanding of the actual teachings. In my personal experience, sticking to any one tradition (be it Christianity, paganism, or the Buddhist flavor of the month) leads to faster progress than hopping between them.
My point, in case you are wondering ...
I think your posts could be more honest about what you're truly seeking in the emotional realm in terms of validation and support, as the actual Buddhist questions you ask seems to be the least important thing to you.
Namaste
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CarlitaBastian please! Save us!United StatesVeteran
If anyone responds in a way that suggests you could think differently, especially if it is a point made by using the Buddhist scriptures or teachings, you tend to say things along the lines of "it's all just labels", "this doesn't apply to me".
It is also clear your spiritual practice is, to say the least, eclectic. You "pick and choose" from any tradition that takes your fancy -- a very modern approach, but one where the result often seems to be a very superficial understanding of the actual teachings. In my personal experience, sticking to any one tradition (be it Christianity, paganism, or the Buddhist flavor of the month) leads to faster progress than hopping between them.
My point, in case you are wondering ...
I think your posts could be more honest about what you're truly seeking in the emotional realm in terms of validation and support, as the actual Buddhist questions you ask seems to be the least important thing to you.
Namaste
I wish I can be honest and say all you said was correct but being online, I guess thats a well thought out observation.
Many things I have learned through more than just books on shelves do not apply to me. It is not that its "me vs them" if that is where you going. To put it harshly its "my naiveness vs their experience". If it doesnt apply to me either I dont know about or it does not apply.
That comment sounds indirect so its hard to address it properly.
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My spiritual path is not eclectic. I was not raised in a spiritual household and I have not had any "anti-mindsets" of other faiths. I live in a diverse community and in a strong christian area; so, if there were eclecticism it would be christianity (given I literally live and work with strong minded christians), Buddhism (given I have practiced informally foentwo years and formally for another two), and paganism which that in itself is a loaded word: folk practices that are not religious. No gods and goddesses. Nothing like that.
Pick and choose from what? The only two Buddhist sects I know are Zen and Nichiren. I practiced Zen almost 10 years ago. I am not a kid. Christianity 25 years ago for couple of years. And Nichiren Buddhism going on 5 I think.
Eclectic means you take parts of religions and mish mash. So, for example, if I went to Mass, chanted, did Zazen, and did spells by pulling in the goddess, you would be right.
You are not. Spirituality through two or so generations of my life is an involving process. It is not a label: "I am buddhist. I am pagan". Its a deep relationship with life. Eclecticism is always used in a bad way and you have many cultures who add their home practices to their religion.
Please do not assume my faith. Ask.
That and I dont appreciate you telling me how I see life (spirituality, religion). Western culture has Buddhist. Pagan, and Christianity as the flavor. Depending on where you are from influences how hard it impacts one. I was not raised christian and dont have christian values. I wasnt raised pagan and pagan/nature values are embedded in life without needing to claim a label for what it is. Many pagans (not all) tend to folk towards the glmaor stuff and a that um stuff.
Buddhism has a huge influence. What I personally learned when comparing it to western view is that it is completely cultural. Being at a Veitnamese temple taught me a lot about how cultural Buddhist see things compared to westerners I AM a westerner/American born, raised, and full blooded. Im proud of that.
Onlike online, many people of other cultures/religions are very nice about diversity. They respect me that I dont go over their cultural boundries and we respect each other with the human spiritual path (which is another label. Just life) we are on.
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What you have said has completely insulted me; and, this is only online. I ak happy to be where I am honoring my ancestors (folk paganism), practicing and studying the Buddhas teachings (Mahayana) about life/death, asking questions, and being me. Unless a person is in a box, or maybe not grown up with cultural influence, everyone is eclectic.
Everything is just a state of flux (Not 'in' a state of flux, 'is' a state of flux )
And this present form of "I AM" arises from the coexistence of the 'clinging' five aggregates that formed (/continue to form) in the wake of what 'was' ....
This karmic bundle of vibrating energy will continue to form in whatever form past actions dictate ...The organic material (body/rupa) will eventually break down and according to the karmic energy imprinted on the sub-atomic particles will be recycled into another form of "I AM" (not quite the same as the last "I AM" , but not too different) .... and so the cycle will continue until the karmic pattern of clinging and grasping comes to an end...
Just sit allow awareness to become the silent observer, observing in slow motion the comings and goings of the five aggregates, in doing so, this amazing karmic thread becomes apparent (... consciousness...is like a flip book and "I AM" (the clinging & grasping five aggregates) just a flip book character propelled along by action and reaction=karma )
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CarlitaBastian please! Save us!United StatesVeteran
@karasti said:
I think the woods analogy is difficult because there is a decision to be made here, regardless of which of many you might choose. You will ponder a way out of a situation so you don't die (or get more lost). There is a conclusion to be had and a decision to be made, even if the decision is "I''m not sure about this way, but I'm willing to find out." So you go that way and that's the end. To me, pondering would be choosing to go that way, and then spending hours or longer pondering what might have been if you went the other way or did nothing at all. Pondering for answers, solutions, decisions, conclusions, sure. Of course. Pondering "what ifs" not so much.
@Carlita I shouldn't really say I am uncreative. It's just that my brain doesn't work in the way it seems to in people who are creative. My sister is quite creative, she is a chef and a writer. Her way of thinking and approaching problems is very different from me. She has a vast imagination and daydreams a lot about things that haven't happened or will never happen or things that she should have done different 20 years ago. Imagination has a place, I'm not saying it doesn't. Without it we'd not have Harry Potter or Narnia or any other number of fantastic journeys of the mind. Just my brain doesn't work that way, lol.
Some people say "I wonder...what if I tried this?" and then they try it. That kind of pondering is definitely good. I do this a lot when I cook, lol.
Some people say "I wonder......" and never go farther than that. That is the type I think isn't necessarily good to do in circles, over and over, for lengths of time.
But I will set something down and walk away (in my mind) rather than wonder it in circles when I can't find an answer at that time, or there is no answer.
That makes sense. I dont know what pretty much to add. Its good we have diversity in thought and can respecf each others views.
Cheerios!
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CarlitaBastian please! Save us!United StatesVeteran
You mean Syncretic: "the combining of different, often contradictory beliefs, while blending practices of various schools of thought."
I find this completely disrespectful. Offline people respect that I can be supporting a friend at Mass while meditating in front of the Gohonzon. They understans that I give respect to my christian deceased without belittling my faith in The Buddha.
It is not contradictory and certainly not what most westerners you speak of practice. Many practice
Exclecticism: deriving ideas, style, or taste from a broad and diverse range of sources.
They take parts of different religions and mish mash them together.
I am a westerners but labels such as Buddhism, Paganism and what was the other? Christianity are just that. Labels.
You can be a Nichiren Buddhist who honors their ancestors as many Asian cultures do
You can be a Nichiren Buddhist who appreciates nature by it being of the Ten Tai school who we believe all living have true Self
You can be a Nichiren Buddhist who believes shedding the attachments bring put who you are as a person without attachment.
Labels are static. All these three ideas come from three different religions. They all say: gratitude, appreciation, self development.
How isn that wrong?
What you want to say is that I practice three different religions.
You are wrong.
Please ask before making an observation of my personal life. I grately appreciate it.
I know what you mean, @Carlita. I come from a Christian background (Lutheran) but it was something that never, ever fit me and I pretty much all out rejected it from a young ago. I'm not anti_Christian, it just isn't for me. But I did wander through some other things before I landed in Buddhism, and while I most certainly identify as a Buddhist, there are spices and flavors in my practice that come from Paganism and even unnamed things that are just ideas I've picked up along the way. They work into my Buddhism quite well, but were I to try to include them and explain them to other Buddhists, it probably wouldn't go well, lol. It can be difficult.
I try to stick to Buddhism here, as that is the foundation of the group and what most people know. I'm sure many people here have a basis in other things that probably flavors their Buddhism as well. But most often those things are left aside when discussing Buddhism just to keep things more clear. The one exception is the occasional discussion from those who blend Christianity and Buddhism together (or sometimes Judaism and Buddhism or some other things.)
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CarlitaBastian please! Save us!United StatesVeteran
@karasti said:
I know what you mean, @Carlita. I come from a Christian background (Lutheran) but it was something that never, ever fit me and I pretty much all out rejected it from a young ago. I'm not anti_Christian, it just isn't for me. But I did wander through some other things before I landed in Buddhism, and while I most certainly identify as a Buddhist, there are spices and flavors in my practice that come from Paganism and even unnamed things that are just ideas I've picked up along the way. They work into my Buddhism quite well, but were I to try to include them and explain them to other Buddhists, it probably wouldn't go well, lol. It can be difficult.
I try to stick to Buddhism here, as that is the foundation of the group and what most people know. I'm sure many people here have a basis in other things that probably flavors their Buddhism as well. But most often those things are left aside when discussing Buddhism just to keep things more clear. The one exception is the occasional discussion from those who blend Christianity and Buddhism together (or sometimes Judaism and Buddhism or some other things.)
Thank you. To tell you honestly I dont have too much to say about Buddhism. A lot of the Pali Canon concepts Im read analogies are hard to understand. Though, asking questions seems to be a bit too much here. Whats common sense to others isnt common sense to me. Now Im hesitant to even ask questions.
But I'll hang out a bit. Its a light forum and active so thats good.
As for rebirth and where "you" go, answer this question and maybe you will know. What did your face look like before your parents were born?
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CarlitaBastian please! Save us!United StatesVeteran
@IronRabbit said:
As for rebirth and where "you" go, answer this question and maybe you will know. What did your face look like before your parents were born?
@IronRabbit said:
As for rebirth and where "you" go, answer this question and maybe you will know. What did your face look like before your parents were born?
In other words, no where?
Well, yeah. Reincarnation isn't like "going to heaven" in a Christian sense or going anywhere, period. From a scientific standpoint it is theorized by some that life evolved to disperse the sun's energy beating down on an evolving planet. So, we could say we're just energy and we pass energy on, or disperse it, even after we, and ultimately the planet is dust. So, it isn't an "identity" or a "face" that reincarnates or transitions but an "energy". That explanation is woefully inadequate and over-simplified and there's every possibility that it is wrong. Nothing is as it seems. Sorry about that. Give the Heart Sutra a look regarding "sunyata" or emptiness. Emptiness of identity.
Comments
Isn't it mentioned in Pali scriptures that there are seven or such planes aka heavens. Highest heaven is superior as compared to below planes.
Those who reach heaven may again downfall when effect of punya is over.
The Buddha is said to be non returner to this low level life. He is liberated completely.
Sonapatti are those who will make progress forward in Dhamma and surely get liberation at least within 7 rebirths.
When I was new to Buddhist reading. I did also sometimes feel that Buddha comes in our though in real . But as per sources and definition of Buddha, he is not taking rebirth again. Those Buddha said to arrive as per Mahayana might be different not the Siddhartha.
Siddhartha Buddha might be guiding us if we are producing frequencies which is asking for his blessings to grow in Dhamma.
In spirits I also believe and have experienced them.
There are bhut preta also which do not able to take rebirth in body form as animals due to intense negative vibrations and wonders known as ghosts. They takes birth in animal form after there craving ends.
The parts of "us" that make up thought and memory disappear when we die, just like our bodies. They are just as temporary and unreal. They do not carry onward. What does, it seems, is a very basic amount of information, our karma (and perhaps parts of our deepest consciousness, though that isn't really the word I would choose).
I always liked a quote I read in a fictional book once:
"Belief is not required. A leaf does not have to believe in photosynthesis to turn green. You will reincarnate whether you believe in it or not." (it was not a Buddhist book)
That quote put me at ease about the problem of after-death. It just doesn't matter. What is going to happen will happen no matter how much time I spend pondering it right now. And no matter what I believe. It makes some kind of sense to me that what happens in this life could affect the next life. But I don't know how, and it is too far away (whether it is in 10 minutes or 60 years) for me to worry about it. I worry more how my actions, good and bad, affect what is happening in the world right now. Worrying about whether my poor actions will affect my rebirth seems silly, considering I obviously have immediate consequences to deal with for my poor actions right now.
Thank you.
Guys. Thats what Im asking, not about our rebirth as unlightened people.
I'm completely agnostic when it comes to how rebirth would work. In a sense I think it happens to us all the time (as we change) but it's not really the same as rebirth after death.
It makes sense that we are recycled and I figure our state after death is probably pretty close to or the same as our state before we were born.
I tend to think our karma continues because even once a person has died, the wheels set in motion continue.
I do not believe karma from this life will haunt the next or dictate where I go because I will have evaporated or dissipated or something and will not go anywhere in particular.
During my life however, my actions will not only affect this individual but any individual in their path. It makes me wonder if rebirth happens on a linear scale where individuals are reborn as individuals or if every individual is really an expression of our true nature being reborn.
I have a few ideas on how it could all work but I don't bother having faith in them or believing they're true.
I wouldn't have a clue as to how to even begin to answer that question.
The simple facts are that we, as live people, cannot know, and they, as dead enlightened people, cannot tell....!
I think you are having a hard time getting answers because it really is a vast question. Remember Buddha isn't a person but a manifestation in a human body. When that body dies, what happens to the "stream" that normally would be reborn is hard to even contemplate. Some believe it returns to the source/creation. Some believes it just disperses like steam when you open a pot, because it is part of everything and goes back to everything. Some believe they become some hall of hallowed buddhas sitting up there as we pray to them. Some believe they become a source of intelligence no longer manifested but available for us to tap into. In mahayana of course, the ideal is to put off that attainment and continue to be reborn in order to help other people.
I think it is so hard to relate to because living in this realm, we have concrete understandings. Full realization is on the ultimate level. There is no being or stream to die or become englightened so upon the death of an enlightened manifestation, there is nothing to ponder that has died/ceased. It is where it is realized that none of this exists, that it is illusion, that nothing happens or is happening now. This is why it is so hard to grasp, because we do not have words to talk about something that isn't, lol. We can't understand it in our logical and orderly fashion because there is nothing to understand. But our human brains can't wrap around that very well.
I only try because I think it's fun but those simple facts do keep me grounded in agnosticism.
Still... My karma may not just be my karma.
I may not be aware of somebody slipping on my discarded banana peel and may not feel suffering for it in the slightest but they maybe just helped someone out, turned around and cracked their head open because of my ignorance.
Oh well, speaking of which I have to shovel the sidewalk.
Wow. I can see why that is hard to relate. I also didnt know the Buddha isnt a real person. What Id assume as seemd to be in the the Lotus sutra but dont know about Pali, is his wisdom or Law lives on but he, as a person, doesnt live so. The author translate it as extinction. What I believe is that our family lives in each of us; so, we know our family through our family before. Id assume that is how maybe a Buddhist would see it: knowing the Law-the sutras from the Budhas before sense we are in a sense one. The Buddha didnt separate himself from others in that respect.
Anyway. That is a good insight.
May I ask you, @Carlita, why this question is so important to you?
No conclusive answer is possible.
How do you expect this discussion to impact on your practice, other than satisfy a simple curiosity?
It isnt. I like to ponder. I feel its alright to ask questions that I know has no concrete answers.
He, Siddartha Guatama, was as real a person as any of us are. But a Buddha isn't a person in that same respect. At least that is how I have been taught so far, but my teacher is a Vajrayana teacher so like any differences in schools, I'm sure there is plenty. And since none of us knows, lol
"I entered into a small village. A little boy was carrying a candle, a lit candle, obviously going to the small temple of the town to put the candle there for the night.
And Junaid asked, "Can you tell me from where the light comes? You have lighted the candle yourself so you must have seen. From where does the light come? What is the source of light?"
The boy laughed and he said, "Wait!" And he blew out the candle in front of Junaid. And he said, "You have seen light gone. Can you ten me where it has gone? If you can tell me where it has gone I will tell you from where it has come, because it has gone to the same place. It has returned to the source."
http://www.energyenhancement.org/desiderata/Desiderata-Guida-Spirituale-Chapter-3-The-Feel-of-It-Question-2.html
Of course it's alright. That's pretty much a definition of being on a spiritual path.
I'm not sure I agree that it is..... While I acknowledge that occasionally it's good to consider points to ponder, sometimes, it's best to quit what essentially boils down to wasting time, and instead focus on concrete practice.
Wisdom consists of knowing when to give up on the imponderable/unanswerable, and return to 'sitting' - and all that entails, of course.....
In my opinion.
Those kinds of big questions often lead people to a spiritual or religious path-for the comfort that comes in getting some kind of answer (for most, not everyone). If you spend too much time pondering you aren't really making any progress in any direction though. You're just letting the wheels in your mind spin in place.
.... and especially when one ponders over issues which have no impact whatsoever in one's practice.
How many realms exist, devas, what happens to Tathagata after death...
Deepening one's practice of the N8P and bodhicitta are consuming enough.
In my opinion, of course.
Our mind's chatter is enough of a nuisance as it is.
I personally prefer to subtract and empty my cup, rather than add more clutter to an already oveflowing teapot.
I don't disagree, but telling people that they shouldn't think about the big questions is usually unproductive. I've been leading a Buddhist group since 2007 and this is one of the first lessons I had to learn.
I never said they shouldn't. I just said it's wise to know when to think, and it's wise to know when to stop.
And I disagree with you, that asking questions 'with no concrete answers' is 'pretty much a definition of being on a spiritual path'.
I personally think a better definition of being on a Spiritual path is to ask the right questions, and THEN ponder the answers.
Do you think you know what the "right" questions are? Leaving aside the Buddhist rhetoric?
I know I ask questions to which I know there are answers. I leave the imponderable stuff alone.
Many who ponder are not stressed or obsessed with questions they ask themselves sometimes and on a religious forum. For example, I have other issues that my friend is going through and wondering about rebirth takes my mind in a new place where like the Buddha find insight in the nature of life. Learning about suffering and the other Truths isnt a mathematical process. The Buddha pondered to and he was of age and wise.
We may not agree and find it a waste of time others find it very helpful. It let us come out of the box. The boddhisatvas kept asking questions. The Buddha had to reasure them of answers they already knew. The Buddha pondered about how to help others in the manner of their suffering.
Pondering is healthy not a waste of time.
It depends.
I think it's completely normal and healthy as a human being to ponder things great and small, whether they are logically answerable or not. I have "answers" to a lot of big questions in that I have arrived at a place that is comfortable to me about them, but it doesn't mean I have a logical and provable answer or solution. Nor does it mean that my position on them doesn't get evaluated and change frequently.
But when you start to look at it from a place of Buddhist practice, perhaps the answer (to whether pondering is worthwhile or not) changes a bit. We are trying to get out of our heads and into the moment. Pondering inevitably involves a strong focus (and sometimes even obsession) on the future, which isn't something, as Buddhists, that we tend to encourage.
But, by definition it is something we usually do to arrive at a conclusion or a decision. If there is no conclusion or decision to be made, is pondering truly worthwhile? I wonder what the high level teachers ponder, or if they do. It seems unlikely to me. It is very much being stuck in your head, even if it is a healthy, logical human practice on one level.
@karasti hit the nail on the head there and I'm hoping it was on purpose.
Pondering isn't so bad (as long as we aren't supposed be be doing something but would rather daydream), it's the conjecturing that screws us over.
Leaving it open and looking at possibilities is one thing but forming a conclusion based on the one that suits us best is where we set ourselves up for the falls.
But how can pondering be a waste of time? Thats like telling a writer not to ponder over what to write "as well as" writing. Or telling a painter not to gleam at his own work "while" he is painting. Its like telling a sports player not to ponder if hed make the big shot even if he was not able to more than he is able but not making it impossible.
Its taking the child out of the adult. As if adults have more logic than a child with whom sees things natually without yet Over analyzing (not ponder) if one puzzle piece should go here are there. He tries. He ponders. He doesnt obsess. Its not a Huge issue.
Some adults are afraid to be children. I mean, what would The Buddha say if we told him we reached the age of wisdom we dont have to think anymore?
This poet's brain is not clicking with this guys
I think it depends somewhat on the tradition. Some have a greater focus on learning and developing a certain view, while others focus more on taming the mind and developing qualities.
Controling the "monkey mind"? (Thats not in the sutra, right? Cant remember where thats from)
I don't think that we shouldn't think. Sometimes we have to figure things out so we have to think about them. Nothing wrong with that. But a lot of people tend to be really attached to their thoughts and beliefs about them and our thoughts about "inponderables" tend to go in circles over and over again. Of course we think. That is what our brains are designed to do. We're not trying to get rid of that process, but rather to fine tune it. Just because certain things might be human tendencies doesn't mean we should just give into them without considering why we do it.
I think it's just a difference in how we're seeing the topic. I am about as logical brained as you can get, lol. Creativity and art isn't something that my brain does well, so I think we're just seeing it from different views. I want to know the whys and hows of everything. So I am constantly stopping to think "whoa, where did that thought come from?" and things like that. I observe my thoughts a lot, even in my dreams. I ponder things. A neighbor lady died today so I have been pondering the death process. But for me, pondering is generally done to arrive at something, to confirm or correct understandings. And when I get to a point that I realize what I am thinking about it's answerable or I'm going in circles, I evaluate that, and I stop. Not every question my brain churns out needs an answer or needs me to spend a bunch of time thinking about what I think about it.
Reminds me of the zen koan practice and Hua Tou questions like "what was your face before your parents were born?" etc, etc. In some sects of Buddhism this pondering or questioning, or whatever you want to call it, has a long tradition of being a primary practice method.
Yes, koans might be an ideal practice for you @Carlita. Their purpose is to break down your set thought patterns and beliefs to be completely open to what comes up. You don't find the "answers" to them like you do a riddle or by going in circles.
For me, I guess what I realized is that when I ponder these kinds of questions (not koans, but just in general), it is not usually because I am trying to break something down or be open to something else. Usually it is a form of entertainment and those kinds of thoughts are the exact habits I am trying to break - the things that endlessly distract and entertain me in my head.
@seeker242 and @karasti
I usee to practice Zen and havent really looked too much into koans. I didnt have a good impression of them in my practice at the time. Now, its more study, meditate, and pray. Studying helps me know Im not blind in an open area trying to find walls. Meditation keeps me open to what I study and that its not static as my culture bas taught. I dont know if other Buddhist schools pray. I will take a look at the koans.
I respect that. Hmm. Everytime I hear someone say they arent creative, I hear a pin drop in the background.
Its all good.
I think "imponderable" is a misleading and possibly harmful translation.
When washing dishes, pondering unanswerable questions is wasting valuable time that could be spent being with the washing.
When pondering unanswerable questions, just try not to attach to any conclusion.
Buddha warned about conjecture, not mulling over possibilities.
Imponderable, to me, is 'what does the edge of the universe look like? Can we prove it's infinite?'
And the questions that the Buddha himself stated were unconjecturable.
Those kinds of questions - I don't bother with. He told me himself it's pointless, and I'm already enough of a noodle-head already without adding to the mix!
Possibilities? if I can't find an answer within a reasonable sapce of time, that too gets laid by the wayside.
I have a finite time left to me in this life.
I'm not going to waste it dolly-daydreaming about things which essentially would mean "well, that's half an hour I'll never get back!"
This is why, for example, I only have 30 friends on facebook, and I visit it once or twice a week.
"Ain't nobody got time for that!"
Again, just my opinion....
"Who are we after our bodies die?"
-It seems to me, among other things, we are the sum total of our good works, or lack thereof...
I couldn't imagine not pondering the wonders of the universe. A life without pondering unanswerable questions would bore me to no end.
Maybe you should get out more...
That was a joke.
Not pondering to me is like being in the woods, lost on a path, and giving up because there is no reason to ponder if there is a way out.
Ponderers in the same woods would keep walking the path and pass the non ponderer thinking "this could go here. Maybe can go there. It may not lead to a concrete answer. I may be wondering for my whole life. But, he looks back at the non ponderer standing still, there is nothing wrong with standing still, he convinces himself, but how can you see the beautiful scenary, ponder the ends of the road, Not searching for enlightenment...but being the enlightenment soon if one doesnt go anywhere.
He thinks: " 'Should' I go back?" What would happen if I did? Would I be able to turn back around? Are these questions a waste of my time? Then he sees The Buddha along side him and other Buddhas. The Buddha says "go back. Stand with him"
"But he isnt going anywhere Lord"
"Its okay. Not all people want to journey by walking."
"But thats how you did it. You didnt anaylze how to help people from suffering. You didnt draw on a chalk board the process of suffering" he shifted "you pondered the meaning of life. The questions most dont want to ask...maybe because they are afraid? Feel its a foregone conclusion? But not you Lord. You kept pondering until you found the answer. Then you pondered more through various analogies teaching the monks the Way."
The Buddha disappeared. The man went back and still saw the other standing still.
"Why did you come back" the other said.
"Because The Buddha said we are to help people from suffering. I know I dont see you suffer physically, for some reason there is something I have to say"
"And what is that?" The other says.
"You cant reach enlightenment and help those who suffer by standing still."
I think the woods analogy is difficult because there is a decision to be made here, regardless of which of many you might choose. You will ponder a way out of a situation so you don't die (or get more lost). There is a conclusion to be had and a decision to be made, even if the decision is "I''m not sure about this way, but I'm willing to find out." So you go that way and that's the end. To me, pondering would be choosing to go that way, and then spending hours or longer pondering what might have been if you went the other way or did nothing at all. Pondering for answers, solutions, decisions, conclusions, sure. Of course. Pondering "what ifs" not so much.
@Carlita I shouldn't really say I am uncreative. It's just that my brain doesn't work in the way it seems to in people who are creative. My sister is quite creative, she is a chef and a writer. Her way of thinking and approaching problems is very different from me. She has a vast imagination and daydreams a lot about things that haven't happened or will never happen or things that she should have done different 20 years ago. Imagination has a place, I'm not saying it doesn't. Without it we'd not have Harry Potter or Narnia or any other number of fantastic journeys of the mind. Just my brain doesn't work that way, lol.
Some people say "I wonder...what if I tried this?" and then they try it. That kind of pondering is definitely good. I do this a lot when I cook, lol.
Some people say "I wonder......" and never go farther than that. That is the type I think isn't necessarily good to do in circles, over and over, for lengths of time.
But I will set something down and walk away (in my mind) rather than wonder it in circles when I can't find an answer at that time, or there is no answer.
@Carlita
I've noticed that ...
If anyone responds in a way that suggests you could think differently, especially if it is a point made by using the Buddhist scriptures or teachings, you tend to say things along the lines of "it's all just labels", "this doesn't apply to me".
It is also clear your spiritual practice is, to say the least, eclectic. You "pick and choose" from any tradition that takes your fancy -- a very modern approach, but one where the result often seems to be a very superficial understanding of the actual teachings. In my personal experience, sticking to any one tradition (be it Christianity, paganism, or the Buddhist flavor of the month) leads to faster progress than hopping between them.
My point, in case you are wondering ...
I think your posts could be more honest about what you're truly seeking in the emotional realm in terms of validation and support, as the actual Buddhist questions you ask seems to be the least important thing to you.
Namaste
I wish I can be honest and say all you said was correct but being online, I guess thats a well thought out observation.
Many things I have learned through more than just books on shelves do not apply to me. It is not that its "me vs them" if that is where you going. To put it harshly its "my naiveness vs their experience". If it doesnt apply to me either I dont know about or it does not apply.
That comment sounds indirect so its hard to address it properly.
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My spiritual path is not eclectic. I was not raised in a spiritual household and I have not had any "anti-mindsets" of other faiths. I live in a diverse community and in a strong christian area; so, if there were eclecticism it would be christianity (given I literally live and work with strong minded christians), Buddhism (given I have practiced informally foentwo years and formally for another two), and paganism which that in itself is a loaded word: folk practices that are not religious. No gods and goddesses. Nothing like that.
Pick and choose from what? The only two Buddhist sects I know are Zen and Nichiren. I practiced Zen almost 10 years ago. I am not a kid. Christianity 25 years ago for couple of years. And Nichiren Buddhism going on 5 I think.
Eclectic means you take parts of religions and mish mash. So, for example, if I went to Mass, chanted, did Zazen, and did spells by pulling in the goddess, you would be right.
You are not. Spirituality through two or so generations of my life is an involving process. It is not a label: "I am buddhist. I am pagan". Its a deep relationship with life. Eclecticism is always used in a bad way and you have many cultures who add their home practices to their religion.
Please do not assume my faith. Ask.
That and I dont appreciate you telling me how I see life (spirituality, religion). Western culture has Buddhist. Pagan, and Christianity as the flavor. Depending on where you are from influences how hard it impacts one. I was not raised christian and dont have christian values. I wasnt raised pagan and pagan/nature values are embedded in life without needing to claim a label for what it is. Many pagans (not all) tend to folk towards the glmaor stuff and a that um stuff.
Buddhism has a huge influence. What I personally learned when comparing it to western view is that it is completely cultural. Being at a Veitnamese temple taught me a lot about how cultural Buddhist see things compared to westerners I AM a westerner/American born, raised, and full blooded. Im proud of that.
Onlike online, many people of other cultures/religions are very nice about diversity. They respect me that I dont go over their cultural boundries and we respect each other with the human spiritual path (which is another label. Just life) we are on.
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What you have said has completely insulted me; and, this is only online. I ak happy to be where I am honoring my ancestors (folk paganism), practicing and studying the Buddhas teachings (Mahayana) about life/death, asking questions, and being me. Unless a person is in a box, or maybe not grown up with cultural influence, everyone is eclectic.
It is not a bad word. It does not apply to me.
In regards to "Rebirth"
Here's a theory (one of many wild & wacky ones )
Everything is just a state of flux (Not 'in' a state of flux, 'is' a state of flux )
And this present form of "I AM" arises from the coexistence of the 'clinging' five aggregates that formed (/continue to form) in the wake of what 'was' ....
This karmic bundle of vibrating energy will continue to form in whatever form past actions dictate ...The organic material (body/rupa) will eventually break down and according to the karmic energy imprinted on the sub-atomic particles will be recycled into another form of "I AM" (not quite the same as the last "I AM" , but not too different) .... and so the cycle will continue until the karmic pattern of clinging and grasping comes to an end...
Just sit allow awareness to become the silent observer, observing in slow motion the comings and goings of the five aggregates, in doing so, this amazing karmic thread becomes apparent (... consciousness...is like a flip book and "I AM" (the clinging & grasping five aggregates) just a flip book character propelled along by action and reaction=karma )
That makes sense. I dont know what pretty much to add. Its good we have diversity in thought and can respecf each others views.
Cheerios!
@dozen
You mean Syncretic: "the combining of different, often contradictory beliefs, while blending practices of various schools of thought."
I find this completely disrespectful. Offline people respect that I can be supporting a friend at Mass while meditating in front of the Gohonzon. They understans that I give respect to my christian deceased without belittling my faith in The Buddha.
It is not contradictory and certainly not what most westerners you speak of practice. Many practice
Exclecticism: deriving ideas, style, or taste from a broad and diverse range of sources.
They take parts of different religions and mish mash them together.
I am a westerners but labels such as Buddhism, Paganism and what was the other? Christianity are just that. Labels.
You can be a Nichiren Buddhist who honors their ancestors as many Asian cultures do
You can be a Nichiren Buddhist who appreciates nature by it being of the Ten Tai school who we believe all living have true Self
You can be a Nichiren Buddhist who believes shedding the attachments bring put who you are as a person without attachment.
Labels are static. All these three ideas come from three different religions. They all say: gratitude, appreciation, self development.
How isn that wrong?
What you want to say is that I practice three different religions.
You are wrong.
Please ask before making an observation of my personal life. I grately appreciate it.
I know what you mean, @Carlita. I come from a Christian background (Lutheran) but it was something that never, ever fit me and I pretty much all out rejected it from a young ago. I'm not anti_Christian, it just isn't for me. But I did wander through some other things before I landed in Buddhism, and while I most certainly identify as a Buddhist, there are spices and flavors in my practice that come from Paganism and even unnamed things that are just ideas I've picked up along the way. They work into my Buddhism quite well, but were I to try to include them and explain them to other Buddhists, it probably wouldn't go well, lol. It can be difficult.
I try to stick to Buddhism here, as that is the foundation of the group and what most people know. I'm sure many people here have a basis in other things that probably flavors their Buddhism as well. But most often those things are left aside when discussing Buddhism just to keep things more clear. The one exception is the occasional discussion from those who blend Christianity and Buddhism together (or sometimes Judaism and Buddhism or some other things.)
Thank you. To tell you honestly I dont have too much to say about Buddhism. A lot of the Pali Canon concepts Im read analogies are hard to understand. Though, asking questions seems to be a bit too much here. Whats common sense to others isnt common sense to me. Now Im hesitant to even ask questions.
But I'll hang out a bit. Its a light forum and active so thats good.
As for rebirth and where "you" go, answer this question and maybe you will know. What did your face look like before your parents were born?
In other words, no where?
@Carlita
No offense or insult intended, just my observation as I said.
I'm sorry if you felt it was some kind of attack on you - that was not my intention.
Feel free to completely ignore it. I don't mind.
Namaste
Well, yeah. Reincarnation isn't like "going to heaven" in a Christian sense or going anywhere, period. From a scientific standpoint it is theorized by some that life evolved to disperse the sun's energy beating down on an evolving planet. So, we could say we're just energy and we pass energy on, or disperse it, even after we, and ultimately the planet is dust. So, it isn't an "identity" or a "face" that reincarnates or transitions but an "energy". That explanation is woefully inadequate and over-simplified and there's every possibility that it is wrong. Nothing is as it seems. Sorry about that. Give the Heart Sutra a look regarding "sunyata" or emptiness. Emptiness of identity.