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Waiting for the big experience
techie
India Veteran
While practicing buddhism, whether through meditation or morality or any other means, are we all waiting for the big experience to happen, call it enlightenment or what you will? Although most teachers say expect nothing, do we expect this one big earth-shattering experience to occur so that we will be transformed?
This desire is hard to overcome, the desire for the ultimate experience, because many times we read that even the buddha had the experience under the bodhi tree. At least subconsciously, I seem to believe that this big experience will put an end to all suffering. It is like whatever I do - meditate, pray, anything - it is only for this experience.
I hope someone can relate to this and share their insights.
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Comments
We all need to realize what a rare individual the Buddha was and his talents and his compassion and insight was magnificent. I think if he could speak to us here and now, that this big woo-woo experience is not the point at all. I've read a lot of stuff about him - my favorite most inspiring book being Old Path White Clouds, by Master TNH - which is a biography on Buddha. (I hope you get a chance to pick it up and read it.)
The key word that you used is desire...that wanting of something more than what you have. Even 'desiring' what seems to be a good thing, is still clinging/grasping, and all that. There is no race for this earth-shattering event because ending suffering can only happen within and it's certainly not what we might think it is.
With practice, kids get over comic books.
The same is true for Buddhists.
The big experience is probably over rated as once it's had we wait for the next big experience. That seems to be my experience.
Now I just live day to day and figure thats good enough experience.
This was written by someone on another forum and I thought it was a rather complete capsule of what your thread was about, @techie (you sound like someone who has done some reading up on such things):
"I don't know if (Albert) Low (author of The Iron Cow of Zen) has helped or hindered the discussion regarding the meaning of these words that are commonly used by mystics and meditators. Only someone who is familiar with the direct experiences or realizations to which these words point will have a framework of reference for what he's discussing.
He is claiming that the word "enlightenment" points to the perception of the Infinite by and through a human being. It is an awakening experience that results in one (and usually more) realizations. Primarily, there is a realization that the cosmos is not what one has been conditioned to imagine. During this kind of event, selfhood is absent, and the Infinite somehow perceives Itself directly. People who have this kind of cosmic consciousness experience afterwards claim that it occurred through grace and they are humbled by it. Zen calls this sort of thing "seeing into one's true nature." There is overwhelming awe because the mind cannot comprehend the vastness of what is perceived nor the aliveness of it. It is truly mind boggling, and it has two major aspects. One aspect is the realization that all previous ideas about the nature of reality were false--that the cosmos is NOT a place of separate things and events interacting in ways that were previously imagined. Those conditioned ideas simply fall away because they are seen to be fundamentally untrue. The other aspect is the direct apprehension of something that is unimaginable--an absolutely unified field of being. This is certainly one kind of waking up from the dream of the consensus trance.
However, most people who have these kinds of experiences afterwards think that the experiences happened to the person who they IMAGINE themselves to be. IOW, the illusion of conventional selfhood is NOT dispelled by the experience. They know that during the experience they weren't there (as separate entities), but afterwards, their old sense of identity almost always returns. They then pursue attempts to get back what they imagine "they," as individuals, lost. They feel as if they inhabited the Kingdom of God for a few moments, but then fell back to earth. Although Self-realization has not been attained, they at least know that the living truth is vast beyond comprehension, and they have a burning desire to return to a state of oneness with THAT--something that they now know is possible.
Self-realization or THIS-realization, by contrast, is NOT an experience. It is a sudden seeing that the conventional sense of selfhood is an illusion. This is what many people call "enlightenment" and what Zen people call "satori." If a cosmic-consciousness experience is one kind of enlightenment, then SR/TR is a different kind of enlightenment, and it is lasting rather than transient. In most cases a CC experience does NOT free a body/mind from the spiritual search, but in almost all cases SR/TR results in lasting freedom and peace of mind.
Clearly, a person who has had a CC experience is more enlightened about the nature of reality than someone who has not had such an experience, but a person who has attained SR/TR is more deeply enlightened than someone who has ONLY had a CC experience. SR/TR is not the end of the path, however, because there is no end to what can be discovered (and internalized), but it is the fundamental realization that frees a human being from the sense of having a conventional identity as a person. Most people who attain SR/TR realize that there is both a relative and an absolute perspective, but also realize that both the relative and the absolute are subsumed in pure being. After attaining SR/TR, people who are worthy of being called "sages" leave all ideas of attainment behind and abide free from attachments to ideation. Their lives are what might be called "a flow of being."
I suspect that 99% of the people who experience nirvikalpa samadhi encounter that state as a result of meditation. FWIW, I've never heard of an adult who fell into that state accidentally, although some children have apparently experienced it. It is a deeply peaceful state of pure awareness without thought or perception, but I doubt that people who do not place a special value upon it, or do not have a strong meditative practice, will attempt to regularly enter that state. Probably the primary values of experiencing that state include (1) the realization that pure awareness without thought or perception is possible (2) the realization that pure awareness is primary to all else (3) the realization that sustained unity consciousness is possible, and (4) the realization that such deep states of psychological unity can lead to sustained states of waking unity consciousness during everyday life. It ought to be noted, however, that many people attain SR/TR who never experience NS. It is probably only valued in spiritual traditions, such as Zen, that emphasize a strong meditative practice.
Finally, just a note on zazen. The word "zazen" is used in a general sense to describe any form of sitting meditation (mantra recitation, breath awareness, breath counting, pure listening, etc), but Zen people use the word specifically to refer to the practice of shika taza. Shikan taza is the practice of extreme alert attentiveness without any specific focus. It's equivalent to sitting in a dark forest at night surrounded by potentially dangerous animals and staying in a heightened sense of alertness. It is a difficult, if not impossible, activity for beginning meditators."
Do big experiences ever happen?
If we learn a skill or train in something, we don’t expect big changes but we hope we’ll improve slowly and gradually. Why would it be different with spiritual training?
Let us hope that we slowly become wiser, kinder and happier!
Chop wood and carry water...
Bugger that, that sounds like hard work......Get electricity installed and hire a plumber
...and then chop wood and carry water.....
I don't think it really changes anything except perception.
It seems some want a sphere to envelope them and whisk them away to some other-worldly electric bliss.
I've been practicing more or less for 20 years and have yet to have any kind of experience the likes of which @silver mentioned. In lieu of that though my default disposition is far calmer and happier. So no great insight into the hidden workings of the cosmos, as much as I'd like to know, but instead have to settle for a happier life.
25 years for me and I've had 3 altogether during that time.
One I was suffering from a lack of sleep and food poisoning and the other two were during walking meditation.
The first was very intense and quite like a "trip" and differed from the next two. During the experience was much like the usual description but almost like I was being told something or like I downloaded information from a source both personal and non-personal.
After the experience however I became delusional and for a time I even thought I was God. Some of the insights from that one still seem genuine but others have changed. It was an interesting and powerful experience but I feel it was lacking. Maybe because I was a bit crazed from lack of food and sleep.
That was years ago but I wrote about it here a couple years back.
http://newbuddhist.com/discussion/15160/the-way-of-infinity#latest
The other two during walking meditation were very different and it was indeed like I was everywhere and nowhere in particular at the same time. There were no labels or borders at all. I did not feel a loss of self but did not feel individuality either.
It was just a flow and I felt like I would imagine it would feel to be the wind instead of caught by it.
So comfortable and like a living sigh of relief.
I've yet to have it happen by trying to make it happen.
Sometimes it seems like I can describe it ok and others I'm sure I sound like a lunatic.
28 years of "jack"(like a Jack Mormon) zen pracitice and 1 "non-experience" of utter and complete emptiness of experience. So shocking I stopped sitting for years. I was taken so by surprise and then egoism at having "seen the light" I thought there was no reason to continue. So wrong. Now I continue and maybe I will be surprised again, but not hoping - or expecting - just continuing.
In my experience, yes. Thus have I read, experienced and know. No doubt in my mind ... except about which is better ... cake or gateaux.
Tee Hee. Exactly so. Obvious ain't it.
IZ PLAN! Hurrah!
If you are peering out there looking and waiting for a big moment, you are missing all the big moments happening around you every day. Letting go of expectation and the results are an important thing.
@techie, it sounds like you have a bad dose of Dukkha ( of the 2nd NT thrisna/craving kind)
Obtaining a deeper understanding of desire, may help to alleviate Dukkha caused by desire....
There's nothing wrong with wanting profound experiences, and they can be very nourishing for one's long-term practice, providing glimpses of what is possible. It depends partly on the amount and kind of meditation one is doing of course.
People say you shouldn't have expectations, but where is the motivation to practice if nothing happens?
I think it depends on intent. When we follow Buddha to find out how the world works we start out on the wrong foot I think.
In my view that kind of truth would come later after some defilements have been worn off.
Expectations such as lessening the grip of harmful emotions and states of mind seem ideal and progress can be felt here if we make an honest go of it.
The mastering of jhanas and/or being enlightened to the truth of exactly how everything works seems like ribbons and bows.
It's fun to try and I would imagine one interpretation of a certain jhana would vary at least slightly to another.
I will be the first to admit I have little experience in the art of aiming for jhanic(?) states but it seems to me that having a solid expectation could very well hurt the level of probability.
In my experience the results are fairly predictable if one is meditating correctly, though of course you can't force these things to happen. Opinions vary on whether meditative absorptions are necessary, but that's a different discussion.
In any case I don't see a problem with expecting something from the practice we do.
It's not so much the expectation that causes the issue (in this case) but the expectation of particular results. If you are set on achieving a particular result and it is your focus, you have lost some of the intent of meditation right from the start. And then when you have a "bad" meditation day, or your expectations of results aren't met, you get frustrated with the process. It is the attachment to outcome that causes the problem. It's funny, when you learn how to let go of those expectations and outcomes, you actually find you find what you had been looking for a lot easier because you are more open to them rather than trying to put them in a box that is limited by your expectation. It hardly means you do nothing. It means you learn how to appreciate whatever it is for what it is, "good" or "bad" without being disappointed if you don't get what you thought what you would get.
I think many of us can definitely relate to this, though collectively we may not be expressing it very well. I have known many people who joined a religion for a "big experience."
Like many journeys, this one feels different once the journey begins. Expectations are replaced by actual experiences, perspectives change, wisdom springs from unanticipated directions. You grow, you age, you wisen. I found buddhism in the 1980s. Looking back through the decades, I can't say I've had a single "big experience" as a life event, but I certainly have had breathtaking moments of realization and understanding. I've never come face-to-face with Buddha himself with the infinite cosmos as a backdrop. But what I have experienced, learned, and assimilated, I treasure.
The big experiences in life, not just in Buddhism, are much more recognizable as such when viewed through the retrospectoscope. You are in for a most excellent journey. It won't be precisely what you hope; it will be much better.
@techie
What impact would such an experience ( the experience of non-self) have upon the 'self' who desires/craves it?
It would seem that this craving of the self to experience non self is just feeding/strengthening the illusion of 'self' ....
"The more self tries to resist (the self)-the more it will persist!"
-Being attached to most any desire often leads to suffering...
Some people do not have a big experience and some do. If not having an experience is getting in the way then try to work with that. If on other hand having a big experience is getting in the way then work with that.
I've had some very pleasurable meditations but I can count on one hand over 15 years. And haven't had one for several years. If those experiences are the point then boy a lot of work for very few experience (in my case).
Thanks, everyone.
The reason I am asking is, most of us need something to motivate us. Even in zen, people meditate to attain satori (enlightenment). If we sit down and meditate (but have no aim), we feel odd. Because usually we do things with some objective in mind.
Thanks, that's what I am getting at. It is alright to say don't expect, just practice, etc. etc. (or come up with that annoying 'chop wood' quote), but deep down we are all expecting something to change. Something. Anything. before meditation, I experience no bliss or insight or enlightenment. After meditation also, I experience no bliss or insight. Then I am only going to wonder, what's the point?
In some way the aim of meditation is letting go of scheming mind which aims.
After enlightenment bring motor to chop woods and carry water.
For myself ( from personal experience ) ...when it comes to long term changes that come from meditation practice, things tend to happen gradually @techie, the changes are very subtle....( like watching paint dry or grass grow )
I think the big mistake that many make, is expecting something major to happen 'overnight' where their whole world view changes in an instant...It's possible for some (where their karma is ripe) this may well be the case...But I think for the vast majority this is not the norm...
This gradually change that I mentioned, gives the experiential knowledge (gained), time to blend in and become part of the 'five aggregates' ebb and flow so to speak...This gradually accumulation of experiential knowledge builds the foundations which gives the five aggregates ( that which comes together to form the sense of self) the ability to go with the flow of life's flux ....
It will happen when it happens and no amount of 'self' involvement will make it happen any sooner
Not yet whatever we do. For now, what we have done that has not worked.
There is no end to others suffering, no end of death, no end of the arisings of the nature of being ... until we change the nature of being to the conditions that enlightenment requires.
Those conditions in dharma are:
Practice, mindfulness, compassion, discernment, study, sila etc.
There is quite a lot to lose:
Desire, expectations, 'experiences' big and small, impatience, laziness, attraction to trivia, belief, doubt etc
Enlightenment is merely a good start. New start every day, might be ... a good start ...
Samsara is enlightenment. I wonder if that just goes in one ear and comes out Empty ...
@lobster said:
But do we ever really lose those things? Do they vanish? Or do they simply change, take another, perhaps less troublesome, form? I think the latter.
And then the work begins.
Every enlightened person I have experienced, does not change into a rainbow or float magestically skyward, singing the praises of the Buddha. Nor do they ride dragons (except that of the ego). They are less of a burden/troublesome to themselves and others and more of a blessing/sharing ...
Seems like a plan!
Onward and upward. Dragons to slay, rainbows to meet, songs to sing ...
Mothers to praise. (GB mothering sundae and card buying frenzy today)
That's just it. The first one was huge from my perspective but it really got in the way and set me back a bit on the path I think.
During walking meditation it was just comfortable and welcoming.
In many ways a gradual process is more wholesome ... and more maneagable. The Buddha was well aware of the inherent diffficulties in communicating/transfering his experiential knowing.
Premature and immature awakening can lead to cults, religions, fantastical methodologies. We have sufficient of those ...
http://h2g2.com/approved_entry/A816888
Scientific mind mapping and induction of different mind states is not yet very sophisticated.
@Jeffrey posted this in another thread, I feel it is an excellent depiction of the 'big experience' ...
Look into the awakened mind of your own awareness! It has neither form nor color, neither center nor edge. At first, it has no origin but is empty. Next, it has no dwelling place but is empty. At the end, it has no destination but is empty. This emptiness is not made of anything and is clear and cognizant. When you see this and recognize it, you know your natural face. You understand the nature of things. You have then seen the nature of mind, resolved the basic state of reality and cut through doubts about topics of knowledge.
This awakened mind of awareness is not made out of any material substance; it is self-existing and inherent in yourself. This is the nature of things that is easy to realize because it is not to be sought for elsewhere. This is the nature of mind that does not consist of a concrete perceiver and something perceived to fixate on. It defies the limitations of permanence and annihilation. In it there is no thing to awaken; the awakened state of enlightenment is your own awareness that is naturally awake. In it there is no thing that goes to the hells; awareness is naturally pure. In it there is no practice to carry out; its nature is naturally cognizant. This great view of the natural state is present in yourself: resolve that it is not to be sought for elsewhere.
~ Guru Rinpoche
This is the experience you are after and in dharma it is the practice of meditation that works most directly towards its settling. The supportive conditions; mind, body and life balancing move towards the Middle Way within us where we can recognise and stabilise the clarity of the facing.
Earth shattering? Far from it.
Transformed? Nothing to transform. Nowhere to go.
@lobster lama Rigdzin Shikpo talks about experieces of openness, clarity, and sensitivity. These can occur intensely sometimes. He says that as long as these are just experiences then they are fleeting and there is some confusion about them. But if as described you quoted is just seeing the nature of mind then it goes beyond a personal 'experience'. So like an experience is not always there, but the nature of mind is always there.
Yes, that rings true, a continual knowing "beneath" or "inside" the activity.
I don't mediate in hopes of a big event, or waking up. I suppose that is the ultimate motivation of my entire practice, eventually, but my motivation is more to help other people. And I know that meditation puts me in a better place to do that every day, even if it only means reacting in a more positive manner to my family and neighbors or strangers on the internet. I most certainly don't have any big experiences in meditation on a regular basis, nor do I expect or hope for one. The small changes that have come as a result are the miracle to me. I meditate because it puts me in a different place every time I do it. I do it because I can calm my nervous system response when I am feeling upset or worried about something.
Motivation, for me, is more about knowing how I will feel as a result of a practice today rather than how I will feel 10 years from now. It is the same when I run. Even if I have a race on my calendar that is always on my radar, my ultimate motivation to go out and run every day is a result of knowing what it does for me each time I do that activity.
I had this BIG experience today...but sadly it was gone in just two minutes, It didnt last long.
So now I will go looking for it again and again, hope I one day can find it and put it in a cage.
When I say big experience, I don't mean experience in the usual sense of the word. It is more like a breakthrough, a eureka moment. One experience that changes you upside down, and you're no longer the same person - Sidhartha becomes Buddha overnight. That sort of thing. I don't mean experience as in seeking more experiences to strengthen the self or stimulate one's mind etc.
That is precisely what you meant.
What do you think is stopping you from achieving this experience @techie ? Could expectation be the problem ? You are expecting 'something' to happen but not really knowing what to "expect" ....
Bad karma? lol, I don't know. All I know is that one cannot 'will' this to happen any more than one can 'will' to be happy all of a sudden. That leaves us ... where?
http://newbuddhist.com/discussion/23713/who-or-what-is-being-mindful#latest
It leaves us with the option to enable the Buddhist template. You are right about not being able to will this to happen. The Buddhist template, partly mindfulness as @Shoshin mentions, meditation, the 8 fold path etc. There is a Middle Way to prepare a sound basis to not backslide or end up thinking one is the best thing since sliced bread and Buddha, if awakening occurs.
Enlightenment is already present but paradoxically the very greedy, grasping, analytical mind is the barrier to its unfolding.
http://bychancebuddhism.blogspot.co.uk/2013/05/the-parable-of-lute.html