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Thoughts Are Bad VS Thoughts Are Good
JaySon
Florida Veteran
Are thoughts bad or good?
In Zen and Thai Theravada traditions I learned thoughts are bad, that they lead to suffering.
In the New Kadampa tradition I've learned that thoughts are good (analytical meditation), though sometimes bad (placement meditation).
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Neither. They are just thoughts. They are not good or bad until we place our experience and perception on them to label and judge them. However, if we give voice and action to the wrong thoughts, they become much more and we have to be discerning on what we choose to give a voice to. Contemplation or analyzing goes beyond standard thinking where our brain just churns out a million random thoughts per day.
Plenty of both. Not all my thoughts are bad; not all my thoughts are good.
A thought is a thing and a thing is a thought....
"I am just a thought who thinks I am thinking I am just a thought"
And to Shake [a] spear[e]
"There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so"
One could say : "We are what we think......But we are not our thoughts !"
)
("Twin Verses" Dhammapada
TNH says, "I think therefore I am not." lol
"Thoughts are neither good nor bad, but one must be mindful of the charmer
For it could lead one up the garden path and into all kinds of drama
So it pays to stay mindful of the mind's contents, be vigilant night and day _
for the charmer will be waiting for the chance to lead your mind astray!"
Thoughts are the embryonic manifestations of Karma.
How they manifest, and what then follows is up to you.
But it usually entails More Karma....
Taking thoughts too seriously can lead to suffering, but they are really just thoughts, they come and go.
For thoughts to lead to suffering, first we must follow.
When finding myself following too closely I try to remind myself of a little quote I heard once.
The mind is like a garden and thoughts are like seeds. We can grow flowers or we can grow weeds
It's -45F windchill here this morning. There is suffering without following thought,
Your eyes and nostrils freeze shut whether you think about it or not.
It is surprising how often people let far-away entities insert thoughts into their heads to be unhappy about. People read the newspaper about immigrants, or they hear about a neighbours acquaintaince who was ill-treated by her boss, and they get attached. Their image of a perfect world gets disturbed. But in the end it is all in people's heads... if they were to stay serene and dispassionate, it would not touch them so and they could find happiness more easily.
That is true, of course. But we are all afflicted by thoughts to that degree, so it's not really fair to just say others simply shouldn't be disturbed. Judging by the number of comments of the past months, a lot of people are disturbed by Trump's election. We are disturbed when a loved one is ill or passes on. How much any of that affects us is dependent on our causes and conditions and experiences and perceptions of the world to that point. It's just easy to tell someone else they shouldn't let news articles or their friend's problems upset them but justify our being upset about things in our life. When really, they are all the same.
Even when you know this truth, it is hard to be serene when your parent is dying, when your child is suffering from cancer, and for some, it is hard to be so when they feel threatened by whatever else is going on in the world. Indeed, we can distance ourselves from it and protect our minds. But at the same time, if we are going to fight the things that need to be worked on in the world then we have to face it as well and to face it we have to know what it is.
Anyhow, just saying it's better to look at what disturbs us, even if it is that others are disturbed by things we don't understand, than to suggest they shouldn't bother to be disturbed.
You should move down here to Florida. High 70s and beautiful here!
@JaySon
But you don't have snow on Christmas. And I can't ski or snowboard there! I love south Florida, we often take a trip to the Keys in April when we can't handle winter anymore. We went in June last year and the blooming flowers and trees were amazing. Lots of good thoughts in Florida! Though this morning it was perfectly clear and air is never as fresh as it is on a morning like this. Plus both the full moon and the sunrise were going on at the same time. Beautiful!
I think it's understandable to be disturbed by things that happen close to you, or that are personal. It's not so easy to be dispassionate about those. But I think it's very fair to point out to people not to attach to things that are far away. It's the first step, learn to live in the real world, not the artificial one built up around you.
And the real world is your cupboard, the walls of your house, the beach, the dunes and nature reserve. The trees that you meet out on your walk, they are a lot more real to you than Donald Trump, who you cannot do anything about. Breathe their air, be calm and limit Trump's ownership of your brain to the minuscule spot he deserves.
Excellent! I lived in northeast Tennessee for about 5 years, on the border of Virginia by the Smoky Mountains. Not as much snow as you get, but those snowy rolling hills were pretty!
Politics rotting your brain can be taken care of pretty easily with the Lamrim meditations on Equanimity and Equalizing.
In past lives, Donald and Hillary were your son and your daughter, and in another life they were your father and your mother, and in another life they were your best friend and lover.
Thank you for that short and simple description which made me connect with that experience. My mind went quite still and quiet for a few moments as I reflected on it.
What a lovely thought it is to know that such an experience was being had by someone who really did appreciate the simple and amazing experiences that can be had glimpsing natural phenomena of the world.
It makes a change to all those awful thoughts and experiences crammed down our optic and auditory nerves by news channels on goggle boxes, touch screens, and all those other media-channeling devices that are everywhere these days - such as in Taxis and even in the public toilet I used the other day - that make us think the world is such a horrific place!
I have to disagree. Thoughts r extremely powerful, they cause us to react. If they were harmless no one would try to control them. Even a trivial thought or memory could cause violent reactions or we may imagine things etc. Thoughts r a nuisance sometimes.
Clearly the Buddha taught to control the mind as if it were a wild steed in need of breaking, the ability to focus on virtuous thoughts or no thoughts at all or shift focus away from non-virtuous thoughts, at will.
Neither. They are just thoughts.
-Agreed, and to the OP, I am saying this from the perspective of a Zen Buddhist...
That's how I see rebirth. As constant and non-linear birth.
But that's just a thought passing through.
Indeed.
... mind control, mood augmentation, reframing, self hypnosis, that sort of thing, can be beneficial to those who require a better bunch of thoughts.
Cults, pathological mind controllers eg Emperor of all the Americas DJ Thump I, are popular as they tell people how to think ...
Obviously being brain washed is not for everyone. 
So what is the best way towards peace and clarity? I would suggest it is to lessen the impact of stray thought blimps that may be good or bad, emotionally strong or weak or even hostile or euphoric ... Here is my preferred training tactic ...
Having gotten 5 certifications in hypnosis and NLP, I have come to the conclusion that they are only tools to mold a better "I".
Since the "I" is a made up idea you have of yourself, it's malleable--your self image.
When I came to this conclusion, I knew it wasn't the right path to true joy and liberation.
Some guru's are master hypnotists - it can be a useful skill, to help yourself and others.
It depends on the intention behind the thoughts and where the thoughts lead. This is what Right Intention is all about, having thoughts of letting go, of goodwill, and of compassion, as opposed to covetousness, ill will, and cruelty(wrong intention).
thoughts that arise don't come from nowhere, you set the groundwork for those thoughts in the past, so right effort is all about abandoning harmful, unskillful mind states, and abiding in beneficial, skillful ones. You are slowly and gradually changing the habitual tendencies of your mind, and not allowing harmful thoughts to take hold anymore, no longer propagating them so they arise again in the future.
so not all thoughts are bad, and not all thoughts lead to suffering, those thoughts that do lead to suffering are to be abandoned and replaced with thoughts that lead to freedom.
when do we know about the thought?
before it is arisen or after it is arisen?
if we know there is a thought, that means at the present moment (at the knowing moment) the said thought is no more = this is the mindfulness
if it is good or bad can we do anything about it? no, because it is already gone
if we cling to it (thinking it is permenant/nithya) then we start thinking on it/cetana
to know the said thought is already gone is wisdom
if one is wise one let go of the said thought
until another thought arise there is a fraction of emptiness
what we have to do is increase that fraction of emptiness
A good argument for not taking thoughts so seriously, seeing them like clouds in the sky or like waves breaking on the shore.
What I mean is, thoughts sort of grab us before we know it.
Who is the thinker? Who has the choice whether to react, or how?
Who is trying to control them? Who is letting them come under an outside control?
Who is reacting violently to the thought or memory? Do they have a choice whether to react in that way or differently - or not?
Who is imagining things? Should they not test the veracity of that imagination, or do they dumbly choose to believe it?
So are some members sometimes, but hey, I let it go....
So does life but life shouldn't be labeled as bad. Just as one can learn to live a wholesome life, one can learn to think wholesome thoughts or at least not to act on unwholesome thought.
Thoughts are tools. We could ask the same question about fire. It can burn us or it can help illuminate. It depends on our experience and skill.
@Kerome I don't disagree overall, but withholding that level of love and compassion from people who aren't close to us is exactly how we end up justifying killing civilians in war and ignoring the plight of people around the world. All in the name of "taking care of our own" because it's easy to choose to not be close to those other people. But in Buddhism, I think, we are (in part) working to see "those people" as every bit as important as our own parents or children.
I don't disagree that we need to show compassion to those around us, but trying to reach everyone is a bit Mahayanist isn't it? The whole idea of trying to encompass, to save everybody in the whole world. Compassion is definitely important, but that compassion should be practical, it should be beneficial to those surrounding you, then the rest will take care of itself. There is no need to turn yourself into a 'love and compassion broadcaster' that spouts compassion at everything you hear about - in fact that's just likely to tire you out, and it is best left in limited quantities for metta practice.
I'm minded of Ramana Maharshi's words, "your own self-realisation is the greatest gift you can give to the world". It seems one actual real enlightened being is more use than a million chanting to awaken bodhicitta.
I am not a Theravadin Buddhist, so yes, the Mahayana path is a big part of my practice. It's not about some ideal that you can somehow reach the entire world. It's about expanding your own compassion to everyone, which you can most certainly do without somehow burning out yourself. You can only do so much as far as action goes, and watching for whatever opportunities present is most definitely helpful. But developing compassion in your mind, even for far away people, is immensely helpful. It has never once tired me out. Quite the opposite, in fact. Too many people disregard other people and that is how we continue to justify behaviors and actions that harm people.
Thoughts= Tools to be skillfully used by awareness...
That is interesting, because I've tried this and after a while it tires me. Can you describe what you do?
Tonglen is a major part of my practice, as taught by my teacher several years ago. We do it as a sanga group as well. But you always start and focus on someone close to you who it is easy to be compassionate for, and then expand as you get comfortable to challenging people, then entire groups of people and then eventually all of humanity.
I'm guessing the Buddha meant to guard your mind against the defilements, to identify them and work to purify the mind?
That's the same Metta meditation Ajahn Brahm teaches.
I also like the Tibetan Metta meditation where you imagine taking all the suffering from all beings everywhere. You'd think it would have a bad effect on you but it's just the opposite.
Meanwhile in Australia....
From a Zen perspective I have never heard thoughts being labeled as "bad"
We are actually encouraged to arouse the thought of enlightenment and devote ourselves to practice. Thoughts can only be good or bad if we slip into these subjective labels. I do not agree that all thoughts are bad, or lead to suffering. Compassion, joy, love, acts of kindness often rely on a thought to develop and come to fruition.
Labeling things "bad" or "good" seems troublesome to me...I'm reminded of the Zen story of a farmer who had a run away horse.
The farmers only horse ran away and his neighbor came to give him the news, saying, "how terrible!" The farmer replied, "Maybe." The next day the farmer's horse came back with three other wild horses. The neighbor came to his house saying, "Such good luck!" The farmer's reply was "Maybe."
Then the farmer's son was riding one of the new horses and fell and broke his leg. The same neighbor came to console the farmer telling him that his son's broken leg is a horrible incident. The farmer's reply? "Maybe" Then a week later the country's army came to the village looking for young men to draft into the newly begun war. Because the farmer's son had a broken leg, he was unfit for draft into the army. The neighbor came to congratulate the farmer on how great things turned out for him and his son, to this the farmer replied, "Maybe."
Maybe.
I think that's because we are kind of acting like trees during this type of meditation. Taking in the suffering, transforming it with our breath and breathing out metta.
I usually come away from it fairly refreshed.
Thoughts, though intrinsically neither good nor bad, are certainly not real, lacking in any quantifiable substance and often quite fickle. What matters is for us to be always reminding ourselves that there is a huge divide, on the one hand, between what we think and what, on the other hand, truly is (das Ding an sich). In that respect, I suspect that the former position, that thoughts are "bad," is perhaps much closer to the truth most of the time.
That is why we need to cleanse the mind daily by whatever meditation comes most naturally to us. And Metta is the easiest and can be most expansive.
It feels good to me too. I was a little scared to do it at first, but now I do it often. Especially during days when the defilements are strong in me. On those days I wouldn't wish the anger or fear on my worst enemy. So it makes me want to practice the taking.
Tsk, tsk.
Perfectly useful anger and fear can be offered with prostrations to ANY Buddha who due to their 'metta field' is able to transform it into 'food' for one of the six realms ...
http://www.buddhistdoor.com/OldWeb/bdoor/0006e/sources/realms.htm
I like that. My wife and I should fight more often. More food for all!
I'll be like... "Honey, we're creating food for the six realms right now."
You and your wifes compassion is boundless. Too kind.
Now, I can do no wrong. Thanks lobster.