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Eating Friends.
lobster
Crusty Veteran
As a fish, meat and general purpose 'bad Buddhist' I like sentients as they are flavoursome.
Is veganism plant murder? ? 
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There are some bacon fans who are pretty militant!
We are what we eat some say...Well at least I'm not a glutz
Along with fruit & vegetables I'm quite happy being nuts!
Does a plant not feel pain?
That's my food's food, lololol ...... once you see it...you'll never eat plants again. ?
A plant is just that - Which Mother Nature planted-nowhere else to go
except to be pulled up or plucked and eaten-which is its natural flow...
They are not designed to run from danger-that's why they are meant to stay
and when ripe and ready they must be eaten or they will rot away
Unlike a plant, a sentient being is not rooted in the ground
they are designed to flee from danger to a place more safe and sound!
"The presence of pain in an animal cannot be known for certain, but it can be inferred through physical and behavioral reactions.[129] Specialists currently believe that all vertebrates can feel pain, and that certain invertebrates, like the octopus, might too.[126][130][131] As for other animals, plants, or other entities, their ability to feel physical pain is at present a question beyond scientific reach, since no mechanism is known by which they could have such a feeling. In particular, there are no known nociceptors in groups such as plants, fungi, and most insects"
"Pain"
^^^ Bad news for the vegan world, @Shoshin...
Apparently plants can hear themselves being eaten...
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2677858/Bad-news-vegetarians-Plants-hear-eaten.html
@Shoshin there have been studies coming out showing plant aversion and reaction to what we would consider pain. It might not be the same as ours, but plants seek to
work together in some aspects to warn and protect others near them as well as to avoid being killed and/or eaten, thus why they secrete various things that taste bitter, and have thorns, etc. It's pretty interesting stuff to read about. I tend to operate as if everything can sense pain, pressure, whatever you want to call it. But that doesn't mean that belief means I starve myself. It just makes me appreciate more what has to happen in order for me to remain alive. That doesn't mean they are the same as us in the same ways, but that they sense things says a lot more than we previously gave them credit for. Also, just because we can't fathom things outside of our experience doesn't mean that isn't the case. There very well might be living beings that do not need water or oxygen like we do. We just can't comprehend life other than what we live here. Much the same with plants, i think. We assume because they do not have our nervous systems and brains that they cannot feel pain. i don't think that is true. It might not be an identical experience to ours though.
Yes I had read about the defence/protection response mechanism and also how some plants attract certain insects by admitting an attractive eatable substance, in exchange the insects guard and protect the plant...
Yes I have heard about this, however I still 'prefer' (conscious choice) to eat a plant base diet, over a diet of what "I" personally consider to be other sentient beings (those that experience fear and know pain similar to how I do) ,...
I'm comfortable with my choice but I don't expect others to do as I do..They can choose whatever they feel comfortable doing/eating...
What I eat and drink will not stop the hunger or thirst in others, just as what they eat won't satisfy my desires ....One can only do this oneself ...
Tis Different steaks strokes for different forks folks
...Whatever feeds one's hunger or quenches one's thirst...
"Man is the only animal that can remain on friendly terms with the victims he intends to eat until he eats them." — Samuel Butler (1835—1902).
Buddhists can rationalise pretty much anything.
Welcome, ladies and gentlemen, to our umpteenth vegetarian vs meat-eaters thread!!!
Umm now that's food for thought
We got a new bookcase two days ago, and I am transferring my surplus of books there.
This afternoon, I landed on a book I have not read in a long while: Edward Conze's "Buddhism through the Ages" (1954 edition).
One of the first suttas selected was the conversion of General Siha, which deals with meat-eating.
I provide the link here for the explanation:
http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebsut034.htm
I'm not making a case for meat-eating, since I am mainly vegetarian.
I was just surprised at the coincidence????
@Shoshin my point in bringing it up wasn't to re-ignite a veggie vs meat debate or suggesting it is the same whether you eat kale or cow. Just sharing information, that's all. Every single one of us causes death in exchange for our lives. Hopefully, we do whatever we can to minimize that in the ways open and possible for us.
This will forever remain a dilemma for some of us, I guess.
I have tried going completely vegetarian years ago, but that depleted my already poor iron reserves.
And I must own I enjoy meat from time to time.
I wish there was a way for us to survive without having to feed on another sentient being, whether vegetable or animal, but there isn't.
And I have to confess after the recent research, I will never look at my salad plate in the same way again....
If the poor thing is really alive while I eat it, gee... how more gory could that get???
Not really bad news for the vegan world, given the fact that vegans kill less plants than other diets, because animals are fed plants. And they eat A LOT more than people do!
Most farmed animals eat bastardized versions of grains and medications. Not so much what I'd consider actual plants that they were intended by nature to eat such as grasses, roots, seeds etc. Most vegans I know still buy their plants, and the major organic (or not) producers still rape the earth for all its worth because that level of farming doesn't allow soils to naturally regenerate by using crop rotation and so on. That kind of farming still is responsible for the mass death of creatures from farm run off and habitat destruction. Earthbound Farms, for example, started humbly as a 2.5 acre very small farm. They now farm 50,000 acres and are still growing. At some point there was something vastly different on that 50,000 acres. Where my husband's family farms, elk and bison have been driven out of their natural habitat because of the tens of thousands of farmed acres. Overland flooding from tile farming has created huge problems for humans and critters alike. There are problems associated with all methods of keeping humans alive. A big part of the problem is simply our population and it is the one area we can easily control.
Yes, feeding grain to animals for meat is very wasteful as compared to just eating the grain. Eating meat means you need to grow 7 or 8 times as much grain for the same nutritional benefit. So 7 or 8 times the environmental impact, 7 or 8 times the number of insects and small animals killed in growing the grain, and so on.
Exactly so, it's about minimising the harm we do, in other words developing harmlessness ( an aspect of Right Intention in the 8-fold path ).
Clearly one way of doing this is to stop buying meat. Some Buddhists don't like to hear this because basically they are attached to eating meat and don't want to give it up.
Years ago a Tibetan Buddhist told me it was OK to eat meat, the excuse they gave was that it was mountainous in Tibet and difficult to grow grains and such. I observed that we were living in England, and there was a supermarket round the corner with a good selection of non-meat products! Some of the rationalisations you hear are just plain ridiculous. If somebody really cares then they will change their behaviour.
Everyone's ability to do so is different. Not everyone lives in an area where it is feasible financially or for other reasons. All a person can do is the best they have available for a multitude of reasons and reevaluate consistently so they can continue to make changes. I eat meat. I accept the consequences of that. I do what I can to mitigate the environmental damage by buying local/regional grassfed meats and by accepting the consequences of fishing and occasional hunting, and limiting red meat. But regardless of what you happen to believe, it has nothing to do with how much I care. My body currently does not properly process carbs. On a vegan diet I gained weight and right now I cannot afford that. I have to fix my weight issue before anything else. Once that is stable I will be able to see how many carbs my body can process when it's healthy. And my grocery bill went up $50+ a week going to a vegan diet. Something I cannot afford at this point. That is because of where I live, and not something everyone would have to deal with to that level.
BTW most of the grains grown for farm animals is not consumable by humans. One could not simply harvest the corn and give it to people as it is basically inedible in the form they grow it. It allows it to be super cheap, and makes the animals sick (which is why they get antibiotics - to deal with infections (in part) of their digestive system by being fed food that is not good for them.
In any case, I find it utterly useless to judge anyone over their diet, or anything else. Most Buddhists in particular really do do the best they can with what they have, and at least they think about it and make positive changes. Just because they aren't the changes you think everyone has to make doesn't mean they don't care or their changes are pointless.
The fact remains that if people really care about something they will change their behaviour, rather than trying to rationalise it. It's rather easy for us Buddhists to talk the talk about developing compassion and harmlessness, whatever, but walking the walk is somewhat different.
How are vegetables "sentient beings"?
The poor things can hear you eating them, for Buddha's sake.
And try to defend themselves from attacks.
That's sentient -and creepy- enough for me...?
If you truly wish all pigs to be happy (keeping in mind that they are intelligent, affectionate creatures, and keeping in mind the horrors of pig farms), don't eat them. Some goes for cows and eating dairy. Try watching footage from slaughterhouses and pig or dairy farms, and then eat a meat sandwich. It will be hard for you to eat this food knowing where it comes from. Why allow yourself to slip back into denial? Why not always feel this way towards meat? (How would being constantly aware that animals such as pigs, cows and chicken are naturally kind change your life?)
Feel lucky I did not post the sexualised kitty eating t-shirt ...
I don't feel lucky.
I would like to see the sexualised kitty eating t-shirt, @lobster ??
(Deleted)
It is pathetic that I have seen child-molesters being treated with more compassion and less judgement than meat-eaters in our threads.
It is not by turning into the Jehovah witnesses of the spiritual world nor by hurling the first stone that we'll bring more awareness to the suffering of animals.
As anything that pertains to the spiritual path, we can't meddle with people's personal choices.
It is a realization everyone must make on their own.
Exactly so @DhammaDragon
Who we put in our mouth is not others concern.
Who we vote for is not others business.
If we yodel to the Buddha and find peace and happiness, good luck.
The plan in dharma is
mind your self first, then go for the Mahayana clause ...
That's ridiculous. And look at how "vegans" have been mocked in this thread.
Why exactly did you start this thread then? I'm sure you knew from past experience the views that would be expressed. The whole thing looks like a trollish wind up.
In terms of sentient vegetables, the answer is obviously that we should all eat vat-grown microorganism products.
Is this a 'flag'? or are you just venting....?
@SpinyNorman Just because people don't make the choices you make doesn't mean they don't care. Is someone who works in animal rehab and saves numerous lives every day but eats meat a person who doesn't care? It's funny because it's apparently impossible for people who live in more urban areas to understand that what they have available simply is not the case for people in other places. And that the diet their body tolerates is different than what someone else can tolerate. Even the HHDL has been instructed to return to meat in the past for his health. He is not the only one that this is the case for. The point being that you are judging people who eat meat as "not caring" which is entirely untrue and unfair.
@maarten not everyone who eats meat participates in the factor farm nightmare.
It's not called "mockery."
It's called "humour."
Nobody has mocked vegans.
Yes we have discussed this many times.
Personally I find the vegan Jain-like option, if possible is the better option. In a similar way hard as it is to understand, compassion for wounded people who molest children (many who themselves have been molested) is smetimes hard ... Let me say that again. Compassion for wounded people ...
The things that are hard, have sometimes to be approached gradually and at a tangent ...
Compassion for those that 'deserve' it, is easy.
Find what you hate, what riles you, what disgusts you. Then show compassion for it. Of course not everyone is ready for that ...
And now back to Troll roasting. Yum!
I skim, so I missed the 'juicy' parts -- thank goodness!
Sweet relief that I am not so mindful in my readings of the many posts here - and elsewhere heheh.
Thanks for the boil-down, @lobster -- insightful and amusing
Tis said that true and lasting "peace comes from within"
Others can't make peace for you and nor should they be able to take away ones peace...
It's the same with guilt, some say/think that what others have said makes "me/them" feel guilty, how can one make another feel guilty..if they have no feelings of guilt surrounding the subject in the first place ? ...
Yes one can make another person think about things with the words one uses, but one words can only trigger feelings of guilty upon others, if the other person already have self generated guilty feelings surrounding the topic/subject and makes a conscious choice to allow them in/attach to them...
"To meat or not to meet" ...those who have a choice, have a choice and those who don't(for whatever reasons) don't...
One has to meatmeet the feelings surrounding any self generated guilt head on... and not make others the scapegoat of ones own self generated feelings...Easier said they done but not impossible to do...according to the Buddha...
I'm at peace with my choice of plant based diet...What others choose to eat is no skin/flesh off my nose...
We are what we eat...It pays not to allow things to eat one up inside...
Nothing whatsoever should be clung to, tis what the Buddha did say
just let it in but pay it no mind and it will fade away
Guilt, as well as mockery, are sometimes in the eye of the beholder.
Many people live at peace with choices others will never understand.
The Jehovah witness that knocks on my door cannot understand that I could be at peace without their God.
Still, I am.
What's the difference between a personal choice and just a choice? Is it that the personal choice doesn't really affect other beings? Then how is eating meat a personal choice?
@DhammaDragon I'm not talking about a right or wrong path, just about (farmed) animals. If being vegan helps you on the path, then this is a strong extra reason to treat animals kindly. To be honest, yes I think it helps, but it's not THE reason to stop factory farming, THE reason is that animals deserve to be treated humanely.
As I explained above, @maarten, I did choose to be vegetarian and it did not healthwise work for me.
I have the poorest iron reserve and red blood cells figures, and after years of being vegetarian I was on the verge of dying.
I do eat meat as sparingly as possible, though, since I do prefer vegetarian options... except when I travel to Argentina.
What I do not like, and therefore my posts, is that meat-eaters should always be justifying themselves for their choices as if guilty of charge.
It may affect other sentient beings, but it's still a choice and let's not bible-bash people about it.
Most of our choices will be affecting at least the life of one sentient being.
If I confessed that I am a serial killer, I bet I would be treated with more compassion and respect than admitting to being a meat-eater.
We have to stop all the judgement.
That's my point.
In the long run it all boils down to conditioning ...ones health and family dynamic, ie, culture/tradition does also play a big part...
If ones system is comfortable with a plant based diet and one lives alone or with others who also eat a plant based diet...Then all well and good no barriers or obstacles...(I'm fortunate is this respect)
However if ones health is affected then one must bite the bullet and eat what one needs to eat to maintain ones health...
Also some members have mentioned that other members of their family do not share their ethical reasons (or if you like 'religious belief) when it comes to other sentient being and eating their flesh...
Many members have 'converted to Buddhism whilst in a relationship (often a long term one where children are also involved)...They can't force their other family members to convert to a plant based diet and nor should they try to...
Or some younger members have no choice but to eat what their parents provide, especially when their parents have been "conditioned" in the ways of the modern day omnivore... however when they are old enough to be financially independence, they are free to decide...
Become a vegan or vegetarian is not easy for some members due to family dynamics and or health reasons, so I find it's best not to judge others based on my own personal circumstances...
Well said @Shoshin
This is the point. Compassion for dynamics, rather than blanket judgement.
I also feel that @maarten stated well the kindness towards animals that underlies the more humane ideal.
Life, The Middle Way and even food can be complicated.
Personally I am impressed by the Jain diet
https://www.alimentarium.org/en/magazine/society/joy-asceticism
Maybe I will be in a position to attain that one day ...
No matter how many times I see that - I LOVE it
What is considered humor to one is considered mockery to another, especially so when the individual is the butt of the humor. I know several vegans who don't find this video humorous at all! If the joke was reversed, and meateaters were the butt of the humor, I would bet not everyone would find it humorous!
@seeker242, maybe the video is the meateater's revenge for being criticised as murderers and constantly being told 'you don't need meat' and having the guilt spear poking them all the time.
They may not be the butt of humor' but they sure are fed up with being singled out for constant criticism.
Just sayin'....
I will for the life of me never understand why some people cannot simply live their lives without telling others "you need to do it my way because it's the best way" or some variation thereof. There are a million different reasons people make the decisions they do and hold the beliefs they have. It's not my job to preach to them and make them feel bad by saying things like "if you cared you'd change your ways." As the saying goes, don't judge others until you've walked in their shoes. Just because you cannot imagine things being another way doesn't mean it is impossible that they simply are.
I'm not saying it's ok to make anyone the butt of any joke. But the vegan jokes out there are a result of the preaching and holier-than-thou attitude that so many of them have thinking their way is the only right way. They are as bad as Jehovah's showing up at the door sometimes. Preaching is preaching no matter what. Mostly no one appreciates being preached to. Share your experience. People do learn from it. But sharing how you do things and why doesn't have to include telling everyone else they are wrong, or that they don't care etc.
We get it. Your beliefs are important to you. So are everyone else's, including their dietary and cultural habits and beliefs. It's not up to you to tell them they are doing things wrong and that they need to change to be more like you. You wouldn't like it if some random tribe showed up and said they hold kale to be holy and requested you stop eating it on a basis of their beliefs. I'm pretty sure Buddhists are quite aware of the no harm precept and don't really need lectures about it. if they choose to accept their karma as a result that is their choice. Just like the choice of so many others who still drink alcohol and otherwise break precepts.
The video is a spoof of the preaching attitude displayed by many vegans on acknowledgement of meat-eating.
Meat-eaters are the butt of much preaching, and that is no joke.