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Adam and Eve
FairyFeller
Veteran
If I remember rightly the of Adam and Eve is in most of the Abrahamic religions and I've always been a bit sceptical in the light of evolution and actual time lapsed. I've been thinking about it in the light of Turkey banning it in schools but actually it has a logical source.
How about if it was simplified to maybe Adam was from one tribe and Even was from another, both tribes had attributes like immunity or strengths they would bring to create a stronger human? All of the other commandments are there to ensure the diversity of the faith?
It might actually then makes sense of it all, less spread of disease, no incest and expanding the gene pool, maximum fertility?
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Scientifically it makes no sense. Period. It's a nice Biblical style morality tale.
I'm confused
Is there a point to bringing up Adam and Eve and the likelihood of their story in a Buddhist forum? Nothing (to me) makes sense of it all. the A&E story has no basis in logic. It is a moralistic story told to shame women back in the day. Sadly some still believe it.
How about if I break it down to blue and yellow. Blue tribe had an immunity to malaria and yellow tribe has an immunity to sickle cell.
A very wise person notices that blue and yellow makes green who have an immunity to both diseases?
Adam and Eve were just the story telling?
I still have no idea what you are trying to get it. What immunity? Towards what? It sounds like you have an end-point idea in mind and assume the rest of us know what it is.
The story of Adam and Eve is just an early explanation of why men eat ribs ... or something like that
No they had no idea of genetics back then. You could revise it in your head but I think it is something made up rather than there be a reason to think Abrahamic religion knew about DNA. They didn't. Your own personal meaning could be that as you can have your own personal meaning of what song lyrics mean. But if you have your own meaning of a song lyric that doesn't mean the author of the song had your same idea. Too far a reach to say it was an allegory of biology.
-I suspect it's just a myth... that and the rib thing ^ :-)
Turkey banned the teachings of Christian faith in schools, right? It had nothing to do with anything a free-thinker might come up with.
I think what you say makes real sense, @FairyFeller. I'm sure there are many parts of the Bible that have only a small part of the story but came from a logical place...If we had access to the whole story, it would make sense of course. Like not eating pork because of the illness trichinosis. I'm fairly certain most have noticed what inbreeding does. So that part makes sense to me.
When I was a kid, I used to ask my parents "if the immediate relatives of Adam and Eve were all inbreeding, is that the real reason people "fell from grace"? Because we are all the ruined genetic results of that? Is that why people are all so stupid?" I mostly asked to annoy them, but it was an honest wondering. I was probably 12 or so, lol.
@karasti that reminds me of a question in the book version of the Neverending Story. I'm not sure it made it to the movie version but the protagonist asks his teacher if Jesus went to the bathroom. I found that funny at the time.
@silver. In six grade biology class the teacher brought up pork eating and the possibility of trichinosis. His take was that ancient peoples had considerable powers of observation. He was also an atheist and free thinker.
This reminds me of Anne Rice's 3rd installment of her vampire series Queen of the Damned. In it she said in her story that the Cain an Able story refers to a meat eating and a vegetarian tribe that went to warfare. In that book the actual characters (some) were still alive from that time because they were immortal vampires: Akasha, Maharat, and some others.
My understanding is the myth of Adam and Eve was part of Sumerian mythology. How this myth made it into the Bible will probably never be known. Adam and Eve without the snake has no meaning what so ever.
No, it didn't make it into the movie.
Stories like that of Arthur and Merlin can be interpreted any which way and Thorsday.
Here is another take on Edam and Evens, from a different cheese.
http://www.theforbiddenreligion.com/the-serpent-of-salvation.htm
@lobster looked at your link a bit with 'black and white lodges'. Did you read any of this and is it related to David Lynch's Twin Peaks story with the 'lodges'?
I did not watch the original twin peaks and only one episode of the new series. I am familiar with Gnostic teachings but consider them dualistic to the point of distraction, much like David Lynch. Entertaining but ultimately more confusing, arty, nihilistic and profoundly empty, rather than illuminating. In other words perpetuating a flavour of ignorance ... Sorry can not offer anything worthwhile or relevant @Jeffrey, which is much my approach to Garden Mythology ...
Here is Adam Buddha mythology ... any better ... not much ... just mystery school stories ...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adi-Buddha
I like the Twin Peaks stories because of the characters, humor, and the mystery. Much like I enjoyed the LOST series. Enjoying the new Twin Peaks episodes so far. David Lynch is established enough that he can do some weird sequences quite frequently and quite lengthy. 'Brittany Spears' and her producers are not involved in the stories in other words would be a way to promote TP by comparison to other popular junk! And no offense to Brittany Spears she is a very talented singer and dancer I am just saying it's representing really pop junk not to my taste.
I thought it was about demonizing the old religion, in which the serpent maybe symbolized tantric knowledge and humankind's potential to become quasi-Divine. The wrathful, jealous god of the Old Testament couldn't have any of that going on, could he? So he banished his subjects, when he found out they'd begun to acquire esoteric Knowledge.
...but what do I know?
@Dakini The only thing with that is that the 'knowledge' Adam and Eve acquired was that their nudity was shameful. So how does that meet up with 'quasi-tantric' or esoteric knowledge? Shame at physical nudity doesn't seem to relate to tantra.
The whole moral of Eve being produced from the rib of Adam is to show that G-d created man and woman equally. Eve was created to be not only a companion for Adam, but to also hold him accountable for his actions along with making decisions with him (eg naming all the animals).
As for the serpent scenario, if Adam and Eve had just fessed up to eating the apple of their own free will instead of passing the buck, they'd never had been kicked out. Again, it's about accountability and responsibility.
Important note for all of you - you're forgetting the Torah was translated and changed in some parts when it became part of the Christian Bible.
But judging by some comments here I'm just one of those sad and illogical people who attended Torah classes shrugs So I've probably wasted this post.
The old tribes had great powers of observation in formulating plant medicines, but you can't extend that to a knowledge of DNA.
I think the whole story of Adam and Eve makes no sense without God creating a lot of other people as well to create a diverse and viable population. Two people are not a viable population.
The only level on which Adam and Eve does make sense is as an allegory, where the first humans took in knowledge and ended up absorbing evil through also gaining opinions, judgmentalness, ruthlessness and so on, and being cast from the pure innocent state that was Paradise.
@dhammachick I've not taken any Jewish/Torah classes but did spend years in Bible classes. But my opinion never changed. It's all in how skilled your teacher is in explaining the underlying themes versus a literal interpretation. So classes don't always help and can make things worse. Despite several different teachers, the general theme that always was focused on was that women were punished. That was the message people chose to take. My comment about genetics was just a smart-ass kid comment because I was annoyed at my parents for forcing me to attend religious classes in a church I found ridiculous.
As an adult, I can read between the lines and pull nuggets of wisdom out of stories. But when the stories are put forth as literal truth and the symbolism isn't pulled out and explained, it does no good. I quite enjoy many Christian stories now, just like I enjoy the Jataka tales. But my impression was that my church did not have a positive image of women. Nothing about accountability for the choice was ever brought up. Not once.
I enjoy stories. I think they can be a good way to teach a lot of things. Stories stick with us. But when people who teach others take them as literal truths, no good.
Actually, it wasn't his rib. Apparently....
Which explains why women are the backbone of the family.......
@dhammachick. Your post was not wasted. Actually it made me more curious about Torah and what it guidance it can offer about Adam/Eve. I've done a bit of an online search and shall try to learn a bit.
That makes much more sense with Torah teachings.
Which is the huge difference between Judaism and Christianity.
Jews do not take the Torah literally at all costs. We are encouraged to ask questions, debate, even argue to come to an understanding of what's being taught. I too was raised Catholic as a child and only embraced my Jewishness as an adult. So I understand your distaste for literalism in teaching children.
@dhammachick I enjoy when you share your point of view. I appreciate your knowledge of Judaism and your willingness to talk about it here. I always learn new things!
@dhammachick that is interesting for me to hear about Jewish interpretation of the Torah. I've had Jewish friends but never got around to talking about religion. Is that generally true about interpretation not being literal?
Adam and Eve's story is definitely a metaphor -and by no means a story to be taken literally- of how man came to dualistic thinking from application of his rational faculties.
And how this parting from a oneness thinking engendered affliction, shame and guilt.
Yes. It's true. In fact the scholars are often in disagreement about what is meant. Along with the Torah is the Gemarah and the Talmud (Oral Law). In Torah lessons we study all three and I've been involved in some fiery debates ???. Another thing I love about being Jewish is you don't have to agree, not end berm with the Rabbi. And they don't take it personally.
*not even instead of "not end berm" ?
Bloody typos
This is what I have against the bible as a "holy book". Surely if it was holy, it would clearly explain what it means and provide real guidance, instead of having you interpret through metaphor and allegory what it plainly states? The clear use of language is an art that reflects the wisdom of the speaker, and I suspect that all the re-interpretation of the bible serves only to cover up its many flaws, magical thinking and inconsistencies.
Don't forget @Kerome you're also applying 21st century logic to ancient mindsets. You're bound to disagree, as many people do - within and outside the faith.
@Kerome
I feel it may be the reverse of what you state.
For example the 'Tibetan Book of the Dead' refers ostensibly to post death shaministic teachings. However some monks with a bit of know how have made it a clear indication of post enlightenment states. Completely hidden from the 'uninitiated' by virtue of ignorance.
Zen tales and stories have multiple meanings which often deepen through travelling the path.
Sometimes the teachings are in the form of statues, Tibetan thangka or other pictorial representation containing layers of depth and various revealed interpretations.
Metaphor and allegory is widely used in Sufism. Traditional oral teachings exist in many cultures ...
http://www.rodneyohebsion.com/sufi-folktales.htm
Perhaps but wouldn't it then make sense to at least have the top layer of meaning as something innocuous? The genesis story in its simplest form makes some pretty clear claims about the origins of man, which are incontrovertibly unscientific.
Metaphor and allegory are widely used as teaching methods - take the Ox herding woodcuts as one that many Buddhists will be familiar with - but often they are just a way of reinforcing the teachings by saying, this thing is similar to that familiar thing, and therefore it makes sense. It is an argument to accept a teaching based on similarity.
I do think that many teachings that are truly worthwhile do not need to be disguised. Look at for example Thich Nhat Hanh's or Ajahn Chah's lectures. They have impact and power without an allegory anywhere in sight.
No sense at all in the story of Adam and Eve. Perhaps a talking snake and a woman made from a man's rib would make for good bedtime literature though.
Which is exactly what non Buddhists may say about the Dharma teachings........
What's there to be skeptical about? An all-knowing deity tempted a couple he made with fruit he knew they would eat and punished them for it.
Seems pretty legit.