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The Truth about Blacks vs Whites & George Floyd Protests.

ShoshinShoshin No one in particularNowhere Special Veteran

Just watched this interesting youtube video ...

"The Truth about Blacks vs Whites & George Floyd Protests."

He makes a lot of sense....Kinda like Dependent Origination

RIP George Floyd <3

Bunks
«134

Comments

  • BunksBunks Australia Veteran

    @Jason said:
    Some good points that illustrate the underlying dynamics of a large portion of this unrest. I would just add that we should take sides. We must take sides or else we are enabling things as we are, as untenable as they are for BIPOC in America. And a solution requires radical structural change, so it's even more imperative that we work together to push for that change and guide it.

    We face similar issues in Australia with our First Nations people...

    Shoshin
  • Rob_VRob_V North Carolina Explorer

    I can get behind most of it. But the facts still remain that; a) the perpetrator WAS fired immediately and subsequently charged, ergo justice IS being served, ergo NO legitimate reason to riot. B) once your legitimate protest crosses the line into destruction of public and private property, i.e. a riot, then you lose your claim to the moral high ground. The cry is for justice, but the truth is that most times we conflate 'justice' for either revenge and retribution or 'we want things our way'.

    The fact is that if Mr. Floyd were white, we wouldn't know who he was whether the MPD had acted appropriately or not. The main culpability for the riots lies with the media for only presenting stories that fit the 'popular' narrative.

    Yes, we certainly need to move toward equal treatment under the law, and of course law that doesn't discriminate. We need to disincentivise the over-militarization of our police forces. Similarly we need to disincentivise police making arrests at any and every opportunity. In the end, we should probably stop trying to control every aspect of people's lives.

    From a Buddhist perspective, isn't this the definition of dukkha, having been born at all?

    Walker
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    @Rob_V said: ...The fact is that if Mr. Floyd were white, we wouldn't know who he was whether the MPD had acted appropriately or not.

    If Mr Floyd had been white, this incident wouldn't have taken place at all. There's no way the Police would have treated a white man in this way...

    I'm sorry, but you sound as if you clearly totally misunderstand, or have completely misread the depth of feeling over this incident.
    That's all I'm going to say.
    I don't trust myself to either get it right or stay polite.

    lobsterShoshin
  • BunksBunks Australia Veteran

    @federica said:

    @Rob_V said: ...The fact is that if Mr. Floyd were white, we wouldn't know who he was whether the MPD had acted appropriately or not.

    If Mr Floyd had been white, this incident wouldn't have taken place at all. There's no way the Police would have treated a white man in this way...

    I'm sorry, but you sound as if you clearly totally misunderstand, or have completely misread the depth of feeling over this incident.
    That's all I'm going to say.
    I don't trust myself to either get it right or stay polite.

    You make some valid points Fede but this is the same police force that shot and killed an unarmed white woman a couple of years ago...

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Justine_Damond

    rocala
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited June 1

    Deleted duplicate to post below. Apologies. I sent via my phone, and when I went to my laptop it didn't show... It appeared I hadn't posted.

    Bunks
  • BunksBunks Australia Veteran

    Just as an experiment, go on to YouTube and watch an episode of the American police show “Cops”.

    Then watch an episode of the New Zealand police show “Police Ten 7”.

    Tell me if you can spot the difference?

    federica
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited June 1
  • BunksBunks Australia Veteran

    When I lived in Denver I met a cop in a bar who was from New Zealand.

    He'd been a cop in both NZ and Australia and he told me he felt safest in his job in the USA because he had, and I quote, "so much fire power".

  • ShoshinShoshin No one in particular Nowhere Special Veteran

    Police receive Qualified Immunity in police brutality case more than 57% of the time...Which means more than half of the police brutality cases get dismissed before the cases ever get in front of a jury...

    This is quite chilling statistics....

    Bunks
  • DavidDavid some guy Veteran

    @Rob_V said:
    I can get behind most of it. But the facts still remain that; a) the perpetrator WAS fired immediately and subsequently charged, ergo justice IS being served, ergo NO legitimate reason to riot. B) once your legitimate protest crosses the line into destruction of public and private property, i.e. a riot, then you lose your claim to the moral high ground. The cry is for justice, but the truth is that most times we conflate 'justice' for either revenge and retribution or 'we want things our way'.

    The fact is that if Mr. Floyd were white, we wouldn't know who he was whether the MPD had acted appropriately or not. The main culpability for the riots lies with the media for only presenting stories that fit the 'popular' narrative.

    Yes, we certainly need to move toward equal treatment under the law, and of course law that doesn't discriminate. We need to disincentivise the over-militarization of our police forces. Similarly we need to disincentivise police making arrests at any and every opportunity. In the end, we should probably stop trying to control every aspect of people's lives.

    From a Buddhist perspective, isn't this the definition of dukkha, having been born at all?

    One perpetrator. There were 4 of them. Each responsible for a part in the mans murder. The one is being charged with manslaughter when the other 3 should get at least that much while he should get 2nd degree.

    howShoshin
  • ShoshinShoshin No one in particular Nowhere Special Veteran
    edited June 1

    @Bunks said:
    When I lived in Denver I met a cop in a bar who was from New Zealand.

    He'd been a cop in both NZ and Australia and he told me he felt safest in his job in the USA because he had, and I quote, "so much fire power".

    Tis said that "Power Corrupts" @Bunks ...and Absolute power corrupts Absolutely >Trump
    ...and so the vicious cycle of ignorance continues...until things change...

    how
  • howhow Veteran Veteran

    The endemic racism found around the world is as much an adversarial "us versus them" response to life’s dukkha as it is an unwillingness to empathize with anyone outside of our tribal allegiances.

    Greed, hatred and delusion define racism as clearly as compassion, love and wisdom can be defined by racism's absence.

    Step up whenever possible to address racism but know that such efforts will largely be ineffective in truly helping others so long as each one of us also remains unwilling to face up to our own racist tendencies.

    BunksDavidShoshin
  • DakiniDakini Veteran

    I'm sorry; I don't see how that video is relevant to the Floyd protests.

    Some very disturbing facts are emerging, especially in Minneapolis, but some of the same dynamics repeated elsewhere.

    We need to differentiate between the peaceful protests, in which Black and White joined together to protest police brutality, and the lack of police reform, vs. the violence that developed in a later stage. The violence was not perpetrated by the same people, as were in the peaceful protests, for the most part.

    The insidious thing about the violence was, that outside elements embedded themselves in the crowd, using the peaceful protesters as cover, then suddenly started throwing rocks, smashing windows, looting, etc. This m.o. has been seen before, in the WTO protests in Seattle in 1999, and in Berkeley on a couple of occasions in the 2000's', during college student protests. University authorities in Berkeley recognized and identified these elements as being from an anarchist group in Oakland. They were not Berkeley students. In the aftermath of the WTO protests in Seattle, it was also found, that anarchists from Oregon had travelled to Seattle, and taken over the protests, causing mayhem.

    Research has uncovered, that in recent events, although there may have been anarchist elements present, radical Right extremist groups, that are anti-law enforcement (pro-citizens' militia) and some of whom are White supremacist groups hoping to reignite a Civil War, as they call it, were involved in the violence. In Minneapolis and Los Angeles, Whites were filmed or photographed smashing windows, then spray-painting "BLM" ("Black Lives Matter"--a slogan used in the past to protest police excessive use of force) on the buildings, to give the impression that the perpetrators were of the African American community. In one film, a Black woman stopped on of the miscreants, and told them to stop their activity, or the AA community would be blamed.

    The Southern Poverty Law Center, which tracks and reports on hate groups, found that there's a movement of extremists in the far Right, that is bent on fanning the flames of racial conflict. They organize online across the US, issuing calls to join protests like the one in Minneapolis this weekend, in a similar way to how flash mobs are organized. They've expressed interest in the far Left anarchist movement, as a useful cover for their violent activities. IOW, they can blame the Left for the mayhem, claiming innocence for themselves.

    This is what has been going on. Furthermore, residents in neighborhoods close to the events in Minneapolis have reported yesterday and today, that Black SUV's without license plates have been circulating at night, unimpeded. Caches of Molotov cocktails and other incendiary devices and bricks have been turning up in random residents' yards. Neighborhood safety groups are urging residents to check their yards several times daily for these weapons deposits, and to report them to police.

    No one knows who is planting these projectiles on private property near the center of the protest activities, nor who is in the SUV's without plates. However, the fact that they are circulating without being stopped by police or National Guard, or even by basic traffic enforcement, is raising disturbing questions. Undercover police have been filmed, aiding the violent protestors.

    In both Seattle and Los Angeles, after destroying part of the downtown of those cities, the violent elements proceeded to suburban towns, to bring about more destruction in town centers. It's unclear how these crowds were able to move freely from one city to neighboring ones, without meeting resistance. It was not local people involved in those suburban areas.

    Much remains to be clarified.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boogaloo_movement
    https://www.cbsnews.com/news/minnesota-officials-say-most-people-who-acted-violently-at-protests-are-not-state-residents/

    BunksShoshinJeffrey
  • Rob_VRob_V North Carolina Explorer

    If Mr Floyd had been white, this incident wouldn't have taken place at all. There's no way the Police would have treated a white man in this way...

    Bull. It happens every single day. But it doesn't fit the narrative so it goes largely unnoticed, and certainly unreported. When it is reported it rarely makes it beyond the local media. I am the first one protesting and screaming the loudest about the militarization of the police, abuse of power, unequal enforcement of laws, and police brutality, but again, when you start smashing windows, burning businesses, and looting - REGARDLESS of the reason - you forfeit your claim to moral superiority; you become another problem, not the solution to one.

    I'm sorry, but you sound as if you clearly totally misunderstand, or have completely misread the depth of feeling over this incident.

    I assure you, I have not, but thanks for taking the time to interpolate your bias into my words. This kind of thing is part of the problem; a single point of view leaves you 364° blind.

  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
  • lobsterlobster Veteran
    edited June 2

    Sometimes ... sorry about the swearing but sometimes it is required ...

  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    The biter, bit....

  • ShoshinShoshin No one in particular Nowhere Special Veteran

    @how said:

    The endemic racism found around the world is as much an adversarial "us versus them" response to life’s dukkha as it is an unwillingness to empathize with anyone outside of our tribal allegiances.

    Greed, hatred and delusion define racism as clearly as compassion, love and wisdom can be defined by racism's absence.

    Step up whenever possible to address racism but know that such efforts will largely be ineffective in truly helping others so long as each one of us also remains unwilling to face up to our own racist tendencies.

    So true @how ...

    One's social conditioning can often lead one to try to justify what is obviously an injustice ...by candy coating one's attitude, be it a racist, sexist, xenophobic, or homophobic one...like adding a sweetener to cyanide to try and mask the taste... so to speak

    howBunkslobster
  • BunksBunks Australia Veteran

    Interesting that there’s about 50/50 response to Like and Dislike in this video

    Shoshin
  • howhow Veteran Veteran
    edited June 2

    Would anyone be surprised to find out in the future that some natural phenomena (e.g. like sun spot cycles) regularly dumbed down vast amounts of our population because I sure as hell don't understand how so many humans seem to have ended up with the discerning powers of your average lemming.

    Shoshinlobster
  • ShoshinShoshin No one in particular Nowhere Special Veteran

    Just saw a poster which a person was holding up which said "RACISM IS THE REAL VIRUS"...

    Hmm and like Covid19 ...a person can openly display symptoms or be asymptomatic ...

    howコチシカ
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    edited June 2

    Good news: State of Minnesota files human rights grievance against Minneapolis police department to "root out systemic racism".

    https://www.denverpost.com/2020/06/02/minnesota-civil-rights-police-george-floyd/

    “We know that deeply seated issues exist,” the governor said. “I know it because we saw the casual nature of the erasing of George Floyd’s life and humanity. We also saw the reaction of the community. They expected nothing to happen, because nothing happened so many times before.”

    BunkslobsterShoshin
  • ShoshinShoshin No one in particular Nowhere Special Veteran
    edited June 3

    The FBI is also investigating whether police willfully deprived Floyd of his civil rights.

    Oops did I just roll my eyes out loud 🙄🙄..So will the FBI also be investigating itself ?

  • BunksBunks Australia Veteran

    @Bunks said:

    @Jason said:
    Some good points that illustrate the underlying dynamics of a large portion of this unrest. I would just add that we should take sides. We must take sides or else we are enabling things as we are, as untenable as they are for BIPOC in America. And a solution requires radical structural change, so it's even more imperative that we work together to push for that change and guide it.

    We face similar issues in Australia with our First Nations people...

    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-06-03/melbourne-black-lives-matter-protest-will-break-law-police-warn/12314412

    We'll see how this ends up going...

  • DakiniDakini Veteran

    @Shoshin said:

    The FBI is also investigating whether police willfully deprived Floyd of his civil rights.

    Oops did I just roll my eyes out loud 🙄🙄..So will the FBI also be investigating itself ?

    "...willfully deprived Floyd of his civil rights". ?? Don't they mean "...willfully deprived Floyd of his life"? They deprived him of a lot more than his rights, jeez!

    What a mess. I'm glad I did't see the video of the actual incident, though. I don't think I could hack it. You know, how some things are so disturbing, you wish you could "un-see" them?

    ShoshinBunks
  • KeromeKerome Love, love is mystery The Continent Veteran

    @Bunks said:
    When I lived in Denver I met a cop in a bar who was from New Zealand.

    He'd been a cop in both NZ and Australia and he told me he felt safest in his job in the USA because he had, and I quote, "so much fire power".

    Firepower gives these cops the feeling that they have to use it, that they are justified in using it. But then, in a society where so many people bear arms, it is difficult to do peaceful policing.

  • BunksBunks Australia Veteran

    @Kerome said:

    @Bunks said:
    When I lived in Denver I met a cop in a bar who was from New Zealand.

    He'd been a cop in both NZ and Australia and he told me he felt safest in his job in the USA because he had, and I quote, "so much fire power".

    Firepower gives these cops the feeling that they have to use it, that they are justified in using it. But then, in a society where so many people bear arms, it is difficult to do peaceful policing.

    Yeah I must admit I do feel for the cops in the USA. When you’re in Australia or New Zealand or Europe as a cop you can feel confident when you pull someone over they won’t have a weapon but in the States who knows!!??

    Can understand why they’re vigilant and ready to pull their weapons

  • LionduckLionduck Veteran

    Until we finally eliminate this damn racial and religious high horse exclusiveness, the stupidity will continue. When we, as a society, truly begin to value every life, this will end. We have come a long way, but we have a very long way yet to go.
    But we must continue on the path. We will always face challenges. But, more and more, we are facing them together.

    Peace to all

    lobsterBunksShoshin
  • personperson Don't believe everything you think The Void Veteran

    The supreme court is considering hearing a group of 9 cases challenging qualified immunity and the right is generally on board with getting rid of it as well as the left.

    https://www.theflipside.io/archives/police-reform

    VastmindBunksKerome
  • Dharma_VibesDharma_Vibes California, USA New

    @Rob_V said:
    I can get behind most of it. But the facts still remain that; a) the perpetrator WAS fired immediately and subsequently charged, ergo justice IS being served, ergo NO legitimate reason to riot. B) once your legitimate protest crosses the line into destruction of public and private property, i.e. a riot, then you lose your claim to the moral high ground. The cry is for justice, but the truth is that most times we conflate 'justice' for either revenge and retribution or 'we want things our way'.

    The reasons people are rioting aren't just because of Floyd. George Floyd was a catalyst, a spark to a bomb of frustration that has been building for years under the authoritarian corporate rule of a country. The working class people are angry and rightly so. Many of them feel violence is the only chance they have left to take back what is theirs. Seeing the working class conditions in the U.S. and how long they have persisted, it is understandable to see where these people are coming from. They want change and they want it now and the neo-liberal elites haven't been providing that change when elected into office.

    I don't agree with violence but police brutality is not the only reason for these riots and I think it would be good if we had a bit more background information into the anger of these people so we can have more understanding and compassion for them.

    howBunkslobsterShoshin
  • howhow Veteran Veteran

    @ Jason

    Very well written!

    I know of folks off site who might be helped by your article. Do you mind me lifting it to provide it to them?

    As a side note... I live in a corner of Canada where I can travel around for days without even seeing a black man, woman or child...but our native population stands in well as the non-white targets of our tribal indifference, exclusionism, suspicion and hostility.

    With sadness I have often thought that until tribalism itself becomes identified for the social neurosis that it is, folks are just going to keep hunting for anyone that can help them adversarialize & define the boundaries between self and other that they crave.

    Shoshinlobster
  • JasonJason God Emperor Arrakis Moderator

    @how said:
    @ Jason

    Very well written!

    I know of folks off site who might be helped by your article. Do you mind me lifting it to provide it to them?

    As a side note... I live in a corner of Canada where I can travel around for days without even seeing a black man, woman or child...but our native population stands in well as the non-white targets of our tribal indifference, exclusionism, suspicion and hostility.

    With sadness I have often thought that until tribalism itself becomes identified for the social neurosis that it is, folks are just going to keep hunting for anyone that can help them adversarialize & define the boundaries between self and other that they crave.

    I don't mind. Everything I say/write is for free use. You can copy/paste or use either one of these links https://newbuddhist.com/discussion/comment/554638/#Comment_554638 or https://leavesintheforest.blogspot.com/2020/05/blm-2020-specifically-directed-towards.html

    howShoshin
  • DavidDavid some guy Veteran
    edited June 5

    I think we need to watch our general labels more. Using terms like "white people" and "black people" even when the intent is all well and good only serves to perpetuate the problem.

    Racism is everywhere. It is a global problem and ironically enough, it does not discriminate. I've met racist people of every shade as well as more awakened people that know we are all kin.

    Here in Canada as we stand behind our dark skinned brothers and sisters in the States we kind of take the spotlight away from our indigenous relations. I don't understand how as a nation we can have the nerve to try and take the high road here. Residential schools anyone? Ffs? Dark skinned people get it bad here too. Asians have been taking a hit more since the virus and those from India and the Middle East? They've always had it bad.

    Not from everybody and not even by half but from enough to make it noticeable and felt even by someone with a skin tone like mine that had a priviledge because of it.

    I know that if my wife and I go to Cambodia and walk around, there will be a certain percentage of people that will hate me just because of my skin shade.

    I can not in good conscious identify as a "white" person. Not because of what's being called "white guilt" but because of human responsibility. I feel equally responsible for residential schools as I do for the victims of Pol Pot.

    Besides, my shade is sort of a pinky beige or something. It is slightly different in tone than other people that are generalized as "white" just as those identifying as "black" come in all kinds of darker shades.

    Us and "them" is a disease of the mind. We really need to be mindful of our labels.

    Shoshinfedericaperson
  • ShoshinShoshin No one in particular Nowhere Special Veteran

    As children we learn prejudice and practice discrimination “through living in and observing a society where prejudice exists...

  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    I am reaching emotional saturation point; it's getting so that I am hiding conflicting posts and comments on Fb; for every pro- "Black Lives Matter" post I am getting, I am also receiving posts with videos indicating violence, assault, and extreme serious injury perpetrated by black 'protesters' who crush and demolish everything in their path, including white people... It hurts. It hurts my heart and bends me double with excruciating agony, so that I clutch my stomach, and have tears coursing down my face, repeating to myself, as best I can,

    "He abused me, he struck me, he overpowered me, he robbed me." Those who harbor such thoughts do not still their hatred.
    He abused me, he struck me, he overpowered me, he robbed me." Those who do not harbor such thoughts still their hatred."
    I feel so very weak.

    KeromepersonDavidhow
  • personperson Don't believe everything you think The Void Veteran
    edited June 5

    Many of us have conflicting values. It's not as if cries for justice go unheard. But when those cries start imposing on our other values, such as truth, balance, liberty, order its not like we're all just going to sacrifice those values rather than try to find a way to incorporate more justice into them. Just because some find them less important to their worldview doesn't mean that they aren't important.

    David
  • JasonJason God Emperor Arrakis Moderator

    @David said:
    I think we need to watch our general labels more. Using terms like "white people" and "black people" even when the intent is all well and good only serves to perpetuate the problem.

    Racism is everywhere. It is a global problem and ironically enough, it does not discriminate. I've met racist people of every shade as well as more awakened people that know we are all kin.

    Here in Canada as we stand behind our dark skinned brothers and sisters in the States we kind of take the spotlight away from our indigenous relations. I don't understand how as a nation we can have the nerve to try and take the high road here. Residential schools anyone? Ffs? Dark skinned people get it bad here too. Asians have been taking a hit more since the virus and those from India and the Middle East? They've always had it bad.

    Not from everybody and not even by half but from enough to make it noticeable and felt even by someone with a skin tone like mine that had a priviledge because of it.

    I know that if my wife and I go to Cambodia and walk around, there will be a certain percentage of people that will hate me just because of my skin shade.

    I can not in good conscious identify as a "white" person. Not because of what's being called "white guilt" but because of human responsibility. I feel equally responsible for residential schools as I do for the victims of Pol Pot.

    Besides, my shade is sort of a pinky beige or something. It is slightly different in tone than other people that are generalized as "white" just as those identifying as "black" come in all kinds of darker shades.

    Us and "them" is a disease of the mind. We really need to be mindful of our labels.

    Try telling a black person that "black" is just a label and that labels just perpetuate the problem rather than an entire, material socioeconomic system built on the subjugation of "darker skinned people." It's all the same. It doesn't matter what you call them, whether negro, black, African-American, or darker skinned, the oppression and the violence they experience are still very real and not just a problem with the labels.

    Same with whiteness. One may not wish to identify as "white," but the inherent privilege of being so in our system still exists, and one who is lighter-skinned and seen as "white" will still be less likely to be pulled over by cops, less likely to be searched and arrested, and will statistically receive lighter fines and sentences, if any at all. They will also be 2.5 times less likely to die at police hands regardless of the mental label they place on themselves. Yes, labels and perceptions play a role in racism. But it's not as simple as what you identify as or what people call you. It's also the material systems and social institutions and they way they're designed and function.

    I think you're right to note that other people experience injustice and violence as well. Indigenous people in the US suffer a great deal of discrimination and police violence as well, and it is often overlooked. Same with people of Middle Eastern decent and especially Muslims or people who are confused as Muslims such as Sikhs. But when we're talking about America, the focus is on black people because of the long and painful history people of African decent have had to endure, from being captured and turned into slaves and being considered 3/5 of a person in our founding document, to being freed but still despised and used as cheap labour, suffering through segregation and Jim Crow, and still fighting to this very day to have lives free from the oppression and suffering leveled upon them for over 400 years by our socioeconomic system and the legal, political, cultural, and religious superstructures built on top of it.

    I take your point to heart in that I try not to see us and them, and consider us all the same people (race being more of a social construct), but that in and of itself doesn't change how society fundamentally treats me vs. someone with darker skin. And this is where I fall more on the side of Marxism in that I don't believe things can change simply by us thinking differently or change our perceptions or the labels we use. While I think that is helpful and a necessary component, I believe there are material conditions and realities that must be addressed as well. And for things to truly change, we have to change those material conditions and systems. Racism isn't just a disease of the mind, it's built into the fabric of our society, from our economic social relations to our courts and everything else around us.

    Modern society has found many ways to enforce racism without even referring to race. One way is to target those things that predominately effect certain crimes or substances or poorer people, all of which can target the black community without specifically targeting the colour of their skin. Just one example is as harsher penalties for someone caught with crack cocaine, which is more prevalent in poorer communities and communities of colour, than powder cocaine, which is a more 'affluent' form of the drug, despite no physiological differences between the two. Another is redlining, which targets communities that just happen to be poorer and predominately black making them even poorer and property values lower, and gentrification, which then takes those neighbourhoods and revitalizes them, slowly displacing current residents who are unable to afford to live their anymore with more affluent white residents.

    Many of these things no longer directly target people of certain heritage or skin colour, yet the results are still the same. For example, poorer neighbourhoods happen to be black because black people have not had the ability to accumulate wealth in the same way white people historically did, which affects the schools in those districts disadvantaging the residents; and the people living in those neighbourhoods, since they have historically been segregated by race and income, are affected by poorer educations, have less wealth, experience more crime due to poverty and lack of opportunity, experience more police violence and harsher legal consequences, and are more easily bought up and gentrified later on, displacing them to other poorer and less desirable neighbourhoods.

    In essence, I don't think differentiations such as "black" and "white" are objective realities, and I think exploring that and being mindful of how we unconsciously view people is important. But while I absolutely agree that we must change the way we view different people and mentally segregate them, I don't think that in and of itself with change anything until we also address the material conditions for and manifestations of racism.

  • JasonJason God Emperor Arrakis Moderator
    edited June 5

    I think that the material disparity I'm speaking about above is what the video in the OP was trying to convey, and why I support things like reparations (to give the black community back some of the wealth that was taken from it through theft or lack of opportunity), defunding and abolishing the police and reinvesting that money into education, healthcare, and social/community services, and more equitably distributing social wealth and revolutionizing economic social relations in addition to changing the ways we view and label people. Otherwise, people of darker skin-colour are going to remain trapped in the cycle of poverty, violence, and systemic oppression they currently find themselves in regardless of individual perceptions.

  • DavidDavid some guy Veteran

    @Jason said:

    @David said:
    I think we need to watch our general labels more. Using terms like "white people" and "black people" even when the intent is all well and good only serves to perpetuate the problem.

    Racism is everywhere. It is a global problem and ironically enough, it does not discriminate. I've met racist people of every shade as well as more awakened people that know we are all kin.

    Here in Canada as we stand behind our dark skinned brothers and sisters in the States we kind of take the spotlight away from our indigenous relations. I don't understand how as a nation we can have the nerve to try and take the high road here. Residential schools anyone? Ffs? Dark skinned people get it bad here too. Asians have been taking a hit more since the virus and those from India and the Middle East? They've always had it bad.

    Not from everybody and not even by half but from enough to make it noticeable and felt even by someone with a skin tone like mine that had a priviledge because of it.

    I know that if my wife and I go to Cambodia and walk around, there will be a certain percentage of people that will hate me just because of my skin shade.

    I can not in good conscious identify as a "white" person. Not because of what's being called "white guilt" but because of human responsibility. I feel equally responsible for residential schools as I do for the victims of Pol Pot.

    Besides, my shade is sort of a pinky beige or something. It is slightly different in tone than other people that are generalized as "white" just as those identifying as "black" come in all kinds of darker shades.

    Us and "them" is a disease of the mind. We really need to be mindful of our labels.

    Try telling a black person that "black" is just a label and that labels just perpetuate the problem rather than an entire, material socioeconomic system built on the subjugation of "darker skinned people." It's all the same. It doesn't matter what you call them, whether negro, black, African-American, or darker skinned, the oppression and the violence they experience are still very real and not just a problem with the labels.

    Actually, I had this discussion with a couple of friends of mine and they both feel the same way. One lives not far away as I went to school with him and the other is in L.A.

    It all depends on the individual. Or did you think all darker skinned people feel the same about everything?

    Same with whiteness. One may not wish to identify as "white," but the inherent privilege of being so in our system still exists, and one who is lighter-skinned and seen as "white" will still be less likely to be pulled over by cops, less likely to be searched and arrested, and will statistically receive lighter fines and sentences, if any at all. They will also be 2.5 times less likely to die at police hands regardless of the mental label they place on themselves. Yes, labels and perceptions play a role in racism. But it's not as simple as what you identify as or what people call you. It's also the material systems and social institutions and they way they're designed and function.

    Agreed. And the way to overcome that is by replacing the current mindset with a more enlightened one not based on what shade one is or where they grow up. We can help that process by not using dividing and generalizing language like labeling each other by colour.

    I think you're right to note that other people experience injustice and violence as well. Indigenous people in the US suffer a great deal of discrimination and police violence as well, and it is often overlooked. Same with people of Middle Eastern decent and especially Muslims or people who are confused as Muslims such as Sikhs. But when we're talking about America, the focus is on black people because of the long and painful history people of African decent have had to endure, from being captured and turned into slaves and being considered 3/5 of a person in our founding document, to being freed but still despised and used as cheap labour, suffering through segregation and Jim Crow, and still fighting to this very day to have lives free from the oppression and suffering leveled upon them for over 400 years by our socioeconomic system and the legal, political, cultural, and religious superstructures built on top of it.

    Well, that's the thing. This is not the States, this is Earth and this is nothing new. This is a global issue and I do stand behind the BLM movement however, a global problem needs to address the human condition and not focus on one clash at a time.

    The rest of your post I basically agree with.

  • JasonJason God Emperor Arrakis Moderator
    edited June 5

    @David said:
    Actually, I had this discussion with a couple of friends of mine and they both feel the same way. One lives not far away as I went to school with him and the other is in L.A.

    It all depends on the individual. Or did you think all darker skinned people feel the same about everything?

    No, I don't think they all feel the same and that's not what I was trying say. I knew a black person who didn't really believe racism was a thing and claimed he never experienced racism in Texas (he also disagreed that sexism was a thing and was critical of feminism). That being said, I've talked to many more who think racism is very real and have detailed their personal experiences with it and get angry with those who try to downplay that reality and their experience. And statistics seem to back up that experience in terms of wealth inequality, disparities in arrests and sentencing, etc.

    As for the label itself, I started calling black people black because that's what the majority in the US wish to be called for the moment, so I do so out of that consideration. Same with indigenous people, who no longer prefer Indian but either Native American, indigenous, or their specific tribe name. To me, the label itself isn't important, but their experience and reality very much is whatever you want to call them for the sake of communication.

    Well, that's the thing. This is not the States, this is Earth and this is nothing new. This is a global issue and I do stand behind the BLM movement however, a global problem needs to address the human condition and not focus on one clash at a time.

    I am primarily limiting my comments to the US for two main reasons. Number 1, the OP is talking specifically about an incident in the US and the material conditions that underlie the explosion of anger and unrest over that incident and countless others like it. And number 2, I live in the US and feel more comfortable speaking about my own understanding and experience of racism as it exists and manifests here. I also think that the dynamics are similar in other areas, but I don't really have the time or energy to detail the specifics for each country, especially those affected or influenced by white European colonialism and European Enlightenment ideals.

    To comeback to the US, there's a reason the movement is called "black lives matter." It's because it's a movement started by black people who are tired of generations of police brutality, inequality, and racism. Ideally, we want to live in a world where the statement "all lives matter" is true. But the reality is that not all lives matter the same in today's world, especially here in the US, and to say that black lives matter is to point out that discrepancy. And more often than not, those who currently say all lives matter aren't the ones in the group suffering from discrimination, violence, and oppression. That's not to say other groups don't also experience these things. But BLM is specifically "a call to action in response to state-sanctioned violence and anti-Black racism" with the intention to "connect Black people from all over the world who have a shared desire for justice to act together in their communities." And I support that call with no qualifications.

  • DavidDavid some guy Veteran
    edited June 5

    @Jason, I live in a city in Canada nicknamed "The Hammer". Hamilton Ontario. 45 minute drive south along the Golden Horseshoe from Toronto.

    My wife is Cambodian and dark. On the bus today, she was getting dirty looks from 2 people that looked like they hated her and they don't even know her. I'm not even kidding. This happened while we were writing these last few posts. It isn't the first time by any stretch but it is just too coincidental. She and the others were all wearing face masks but she says they looked mean.

    Now she is home and I am on a bus with a mask with people of all kinds of shades on my way to work at a place I am thankfully done with in a week as racism is frowned on but still very noticeable. That's not why I'm leaving but I have to constantly remind people not to use derogatory terms in my presence. And I am not just talking about "white people" and the slurs are not always about "black people".

    I understand perfectly well why BLM matters but I see racism towards indigenous people and other obvious minorities including black lives.

    The same reason I understand BLM is not saying only black lives matter is the same reason I'd ask BLM not to forget we are all in this together and that standing up against racism of all kinds doesn't mean less support for black lives.

    I also support the global effort for BLM but racism is not exclusive.

    Act local, think global.

    That's all I'm saying.

    That and the thing about the labels. We need to use them more wisely.

    Seriously.

  • JasonJason God Emperor Arrakis Moderator
    edited June 5

    @David said:
    @Jason, I live in a city in Canada nicknamed "The Hammer". Hamilton Ontario. 45 minute drive south along the Golden Horseshoe from Toronto.

    My wife is Cambodian and dark. On the bus today, she was getting dirty looks from 2 people that looked like they hated her and they don't even know her. I'm not even kidding. This happened while we were writing these last few posts. It isn't the first time by any stretch but it is just too coincidental. She and the others were all wearing face masks but she says they looked mean.

    Now she is home and I am on a bus with a mask with people of all kinds of shades on my way to work at a place I am thankfully done with in a week as racism is frowned on but still very noticeable. That's not why I'm leaving but I have to constantly remind people not to use derogatory terms in my presence. And I am not just talking about "white people" and the slurs are not always about "black people".

    I understand perfectly well why BLM matters but I see racism towards indigenous people and other obvious minorities including black lives.

    The same reason I understand BLM is not saying only black lives matter is the same reason I'd ask BLM not to forget we are all in this together and that standing up against racism of all kinds doesn't mean less support for black lives.

    I also support the global effort for BLM but racism is not exclusive.

    Act local, think global.

    That's all I'm saying.

    That and the thing about the labels. We need to use them more wisely.

    Seriously.

    In the same way as you don't want to erase what your wife is experiencing, I don't want to erase the voices of the black lives matter movement. They will be the first to say that racism of all kinds is an evil that should be confronted. But their voices are highlighting a particular struggle that effects black people throughout most of the world, especially where slavery and colonialism have existed (e.g., the US, Haiti, South Africa, etc.), and that is the subject of this thread if I'm not mistaken. That doesn't negate the racism experienced by other people, such as your wife, and I agree their struggles are connected if not analogous.

    As for the whole label thing, I agree with you on a contemplative and philosophical level. However, labels are useful for communication and I think the ones being used at present convey important meanings that need to be included when discussing issues such as racism and the disparate treatment of people with darker skin colours, especial those originating from the African continent and forcefully transported to Western country and colonies against their will and who continue to suffer inequality and oppression as a result of intellectual and systemic biases that are continually enabled and reproduced within our society. In addition, as much as we may dislike the presence of certain labels, we should also guard against policing how other groups and communities wish to refer to themselves as, and all the history and culture those labels include.

    In this particular case, I don't think that calling a person or group who identifies as black is inherently unskillful. And if and when such labels become useless, unnecessary, or unwanted, then I agree that we should drop them. But I don't think we shouldn't act as if we live in a post-racial world and drop them prematurely, because if we do, it just makes it easier for fairer-skinned people to say, "See, we're not racist, races and racism don't exist anymore. Problem solved," as darker-skinned people originating from Africa continue to suffer from wealth inequality, disparate treatment from justice systems, etc. Because racists will then point to them as say things like their predicament can't be because of racism so it must be their individual character.

    In essence, I don't think I disagree with you on an objective level. Nevertheless, I don't think these problems will be solved if we simply stop referring to one another as "white," "black," "Asian," "indigenous," "American," "Canadian," etc. when talking about specific groups of people for the sake of communication. Like the Buddha said, "these are the world's designations, the world's expressions, the world's ways of speaking, the world's descriptions," with which one may express themselves with without grasping to them.

    VastmindShoshinDavidlobster
  • howhow Veteran Veteran

    Federica said
    I am reaching emotional saturation point; it's getting so that I am hiding conflicting posts and comments on Fb; for every pro- "Black Lives Matter" post I am getting, I am also receiving posts with videos indicating violence, assault, and extreme serious injury perpetrated by black 'protesters' who crush and demolish everything in their path, including white people... It hurts. It hurts my heart and bends me double with excruciating agony, so that I clutch my stomach, and have tears coursing down my face, repeating to myself, as best I can,
    "He abused me, he struck me, he overpowered me, he robbed me." Those who harbor such thoughts do not still their hatred.
    He abused me, he struck me, he overpowered me, he robbed me." Those who do not harbor such thoughts still their hatred."
    I feel so very weak.

    For such a widely charged topic, one small part of it comes to mind.

    I am reminded of a well-known story of a Roshi whose disciple decided to visit an abattoir to see firsthand what the suffering fuss about animal cruelty was really about. That disciple fainted half way through that tour from all that he was experiencing and had to be carried out unconscious.

    That Roshi when later told about his disciple’s actions and was asked how he would have responded said "firstly it's unlikely I would have chosen to put myself in such a circumstance but more importantly If I did, I would have hoped to have kept my eyes fully open to all of it because isn't that the point of a practice".

    The suffering of what we witness is often intensified when seen through an eye and mind that is unwilling to fully face being present for that witnessing: whereas the suffering of what we witness is often more manageable when seen with an eye and mind that is willing to fully face being present for that witnessing.

    This is just another description of meditation.

    Sufferings cause, contrasted to Suffering's cessation, is simply our response to phenomena as a manifestation of the self, contrasted to our responses to phenomena as a manifestation of selflessness.

    Where a manifestation of the self is a shuttering down of whatever sense gate offers a threat to its own identity dream, a manifestation of selflessness that lacks an identity dream to protect, requires no sense gate editing.

    One option not often considered when thick within the field of suffering is that often suffering’s intensity is actually built up by our active defense against it
    when in reality a complete surrender to it offers one of our best chances at suffering's cessation, when it exposes what little real self actually exists for any passing suffering to attach to.

    This is obviously just about our relationship to our suffering and is not specifically about any other postings on this thread.

    ShoshinDavidpersonlobster
  • DavidDavid some guy Veteran
    edited June 5

    @Jason, I do think it is time to be more skillful with the labels even if people are overly attached to them. They are outdated and serve to divide even with good intentions. It is just my opinion and I don't mean to upset anyone by the suggestion.

    It may not solve the problem but it is a step in the right direction.

  • ShoshinShoshin No one in particular Nowhere Special Veteran

    Being bi-racial ( Afro-Caribbean father 'Jamaican' Anglo-Saxon mother 'English') growing up in south east London in the 50s & 60s, I had my fair share of running the gauntlet of racist remarks everyday, coming from adults( even the police) and other children..the N word, Wog, Coon, Darkie, etc,etc...and hurtful things like not being invited to some 'friends' homes, because their parents didn't like coloured people...

    I think when as a child, you have been on the receiving end of this kind of behaviour and these kind of remarks on a daily bases...One starts to develop an in-depth experiential understanding of discrimination and racism...AKA firsthand experience ...

    However in saying this, for those of darker skin, their plight is even worse ( my father and his relatives comes to mind)...I have the luxury of some obvious Anglo-Saxon heritage ( I guess to a lesser extent privilege)...lighter complexion, an all year round tan, slight negroid features, and curly hair......but not light enough skin or straight enough hair to avoid racial abuse altogether...

    Some well meaning white friends through rose coloured glasses would say "You are so lucky being mixed race...... you have the best of both worlds" ....If only this were true.....

    In this inspiring and powerful talk, Megan Francis traces the root causes of our current racial climate to their core causes, debunking common misconceptions and calling out "fix-all" cures to a complex social problem

    Megan Ming Francis is an Assistant Professor in the Department of Political Science at the University of Washington where she specializes in the study of American politics, race, and the development of constitutional law. She is particularly interested in the construction of rights and citizenship, black political activism, and the post-civil war South. Born and raised in Seattle, WA, she was educated at Garfield High School, Rice University in Houston, and Princeton University where she received her M.A. and her Ph.D. in Politics.

    In her award winning book, Civil Rights and the Making of the Modern American State, shows that the battle against lynching and mob violence in the first quarter of the 20th century were pivotal to the development of civil rights and the growth of federal court power. She is inspired by people who fight for justice–even when the end appears nowhere in sight.

    federicapegembaralobsterJason
  • lobsterlobster Veteran

    Peace for Racists, thought it might be pertinent ...
    https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/racists-peace-200607085302328.html

    Shoshin
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