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Secular Buddhism? Religious Buddhism? Why not both? Or neither?

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Comments

  • NevermindNevermind Bitter & Hateful Veteran
    edited December 2013
    Chaz said:

    Nevermind said:


    Religions have been coexisting for centuries, sometimes with violent conflicts. So why haven't they fuuuu-uuusssseeeedd???? :dunce:

    They have and there are plenty of examples.

    Christianty and Buddhism (Tibetan) are both excellent examples.

    Christbuddhistianity? I've never heard of it. :screwy:
  • DavidDavid A human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First Nations Veteran
    Personally, I think if there is God, there is no separation between it and us. To me, God is just the universe itself becoming aware one aspect at a time.

    Know thy true self.
    riverflow
  • ChazChaz The Remarkable Chaz Anywhere, Everywhere & Nowhere Veteran
    edited December 2013
    Nevermind said:



    Christbuddhistianity? I've never heard of it. :screwy:

    I meant those as separate examples

    BUT ....

    There are those who believe that nestorian Christianity has certain influences on both Bon and Buddhism in Tibet - material culture mostly.

    There are plenty of example of fusion between Bon and Buddhism in Tibet - in fact, some people can't tell the difference between the two.

    In Christianity there are lots of example. Look at this time of the year. Christmas Trees, Yule Logs, Wreaths, feasting, gift exchange, Santa Claus, even the date, all a part of a traditional Christian Christmas, is adopted from pagan traditions that Chritianity encountered in Europe as it spread. Fusion. Purposive evolution.

    Christbuddhistianity - lol that's a good one. It will probably happen. Give it a few centuries.
    Jeffreylobster
  • NevermindNevermind Bitter & Hateful Veteran
    Chaz said:

    Nevermind said:



    Christbuddhistianity? I've never heard of it. :screwy:

    I meant those as separate examples

    BUT ....

    There are those who believe that nestorian Christianity has certain influences on both Bon and Buddhism in Tibet - material culture mostly.

    There are plenty of example of fusion between Bon and Buddhism in Tibet - in fact, some people can't tell the difference between the two.

    In Christianity there are lots of example. Look at this time of the year. Christmas Trees, Yule Logs, Wreaths, feasting, gift exchange, Santa Claus, even the date, all a part of a traditional Christian Christmas, is adopted from pagan traditions that Chritianity encountered in Europe as it spread. Fusion. Purposive evolution.

    Christbuddhistianity - lol that's a good one. It will probably happen. Give it a few centuries.
    So you're trying to say that Tibetan Buddhism is not Buddhism?

    And you're saying that Christianity is not Christianity because of Santa Clause?

    Where did you go to school? :wtf:
  • ChazChaz The Remarkable Chaz Anywhere, Everywhere & Nowhere Veteran
    edited December 2013
    Nevermind said:



    So you're trying to say that Tibetan Buddhism is not Buddhism?

    Straw Man
    And you're saying that Christianity is not Christianity because of Santa Clause?
    Straw Man
    Where did you go to school?
    Ad Hom
  • NevermindNevermind Bitter & Hateful Veteran
    Chaz said:

    Nevermind said:



    So you're trying to say that Tibetan Buddhism is not Buddhism?

    Straw Man
    And you're saying that Christianity is not Christianity because of Santa Clause?
    Straw Man
    Where did you go to school?
    Ad Hom

    Uh, are you trying to say that Bon is not Bon?
  • ChazChaz The Remarkable Chaz Anywhere, Everywhere & Nowhere Veteran
    edited December 2013
    Nevermind said:

    Chaz said:

    Nevermind said:



    So you're trying to say that Tibetan Buddhism is not Buddhism?

    Straw Man
    And you're saying that Christianity is not Christianity because of Santa Clause?
    Straw Man
    Where did you go to school?
    Ad Hom

    Uh, are you trying to say that Bon is not Bon?

    Straw man again!

    Swing ...... and a miss.
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    Rather than just say "Straw man!", why not prove the point wrong.
  • ChazChaz The Remarkable Chaz Anywhere, Everywhere & Nowhere Veteran
    Don't have to.

    A Straw Man is, technically, an informal falacy and as such does not merit direct ressponse.

    Sorry.
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    edited December 2013
    Sorry, but that's the easy way out, particularly when straw men should be easily proven false. Additionally, you use that same argument so often that it is becoming cliche in your posts. Tackle the fallacies!
  • NevermindNevermind Bitter & Hateful Veteran
    edited December 2013
    It's a straw man because Chaz is not claiming TB and Bon have fused. They are indeed distinct.
  • ChazChaz The Remarkable Chaz Anywhere, Everywhere & Nowhere Veteran
    edited December 2013
    Vinlyn,

    address a question that clearly and intentionally misrepresents my position?

    Homey don't play that game.

    Sorry...

    Here's my post:
    There are those who believe that nestorian Christianity has certain influences on both Bon and Buddhism in Tibet - material culture mostly.

    There are plenty of example of fusion between Bon and Buddhism in Tibet - in fact, some people can't tell the difference between the two.

    In Christianity there are lots of example. Look at this time of the year. Christmas Trees, Yule Logs, Wreaths, feasting, gift exchange, Santa Claus, even the date, all a part of a traditional Christian Christmas, is adopted from pagan traditions that Chritianity encountered in Europe as it spread. Fusion. Purposive evolution.

    Christbuddhistianity - lol that's a good one. It will probably happen. Give it a few centuries.
    Anywhere in here where I even hint at being of the position that Christianity is not Christianity or Tibetan Buddhism isn't Buddhism because of foriegn cultural influence?

    Nope.

    Nevermind is SOL, as they say.

    In addition, NM's strawman would fall under "assertion" and it's up to the person making the assertion to prove it true not another to prove false. 1st year high school debate team stuff.
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    Chaz, it's just that in discussions you often just dismiss things with a proverbial wave of the hand when you don't agree.
  • BhikkhuJayasaraBhikkhuJayasara Bhikkhu Veteran
    Chaz said:

    Don't have to.

    A Straw Man is, technically, an informal falacy and as such does not merit direct ressponse.

    Sorry.

    Sure it does, you have to respond as to WHY you think its a straw man, screaming it out doesnt do anything, might as just yell out marco polo!
    vinlynMaryAnne
  • NevermindNevermind Bitter & Hateful Veteran
    Chaz said:

    Vinlyn,

    address a question that clearly and intentionally misrepresents my position?

    Homey don't play that game.

    Sorry...

    Here's my post:

    There are those who believe that nestorian Christianity has certain influences on both Bon and Buddhism in Tibet - material culture mostly.

    There are plenty of example of fusion between Bon and Buddhism in Tibet - in fact, some people can't tell the difference between the two.

    In Christianity there are lots of example. Look at this time of the year. Christmas Trees, Yule Logs, Wreaths, feasting, gift exchange, Santa Claus, even the date, all a part of a traditional Christian Christmas, is adopted from pagan traditions that Chritianity encountered in Europe as it spread. Fusion. Purposive evolution.

    Christbuddhistianity - lol that's a good one. It will probably happen. Give it a few centuries.
    Anywhere in here where I even hint at being of the position that Christianity is not Christianity or Tibetan Buddhism isn't Buddhism because of foriegn cultural influence?

    Nope.

    Nevermind is SOL, as they say.

    In addition, NM's strawman would fall under "assertion" and it's up to the person making the assertion to prove it true not another to prove false. 1st year high school debate team stuff.


    I really am misinformed, cuz like, I had no idea that Christmas Trees, Yule Logs, Wreaths, feasting, gift exchange, and Santa Claus were religions. Separate religions that fused with Christianity. Oh wait, no, he refers to them as "pagan traditions," not religions. Silly me. :p
  • ChazChaz The Remarkable Chaz Anywhere, Everywhere & Nowhere Veteran
    edited December 2013
    That's because they don't need to be addressed.

    In this case, NM hasn't represented the points I'm making, at all. That's technically a straw man of course. If that's not my point why should I address it? Make you happy?

    See, that's an Ad Hom. You shouldn't respond to that because it attacks you and not your point.

    For me to repsong to your post, with "OH, so now your saying that I'm dismissive!" is a straw man. You're not calling me dismissive and thats not your point. It doesn't merit a response from you because you didn't say that and it's not incubment on you to try to refute it.

    You see that a lot on boards like this. People throw up straw men all the time, but that doesn't mean any of us should be expected to respond.

    Go after my ponts directly and I'm happy to respond. Make shit up, and you can talk to the hand.
  • anatamananataman Who needs a title? Where am I? Veteran
    Oh me, oh mine and oh myself. Ooops - is this Ad Hominem?

    vinlynChaz
  • :coffee:
  • ChazChaz The Remarkable Chaz Anywhere, Everywhere & Nowhere Veteran
    Nevermind said:



    I really am misinformed,

    If you say so ....

  • Invincible_summerInvincible_summer Heavy Metal Dhamma We(s)t coast, Canada Veteran

    @Nevermind and @Chaz - Shin Buddhism as it is practiced now has LOTS of parallels with (liberal) Protestant Christianity.

    They have Reverends that can marry and have families; being a Pure Land sect, they focus their practice on a single messianic figure of Amida Buddha; "services" generally follow the format of a Protestant church (chanting/singing and a dhamma talk); some of the temples are even part of the "Buddhist Churches of America." Shin Buddhism was also formed as a reaction against the "elitism" of other schools of Buddhism (sound familiar?).

    Just a few examples, but if you're interested, you can always read more.
    DakiniJeffreyvinlyn
  • ChazChaz The Remarkable Chaz Anywhere, Everywhere & Nowhere Veteran


    @Nevermind and @Chaz - Shin Buddhism as it is practiced now has LOTS of parallels with (liberal) Protestant Christianity.

    They have Reverends that can marry and have families; being a Pure Land sect, they focus their practice on a single messianic figure of Amida Buddha; "services" generally follow the format of a Protestant church (chanting/singing and a dhamma talk); some of the temples are even part of the "Buddhist Churches of America." Shin Buddhism was also formed as a reaction against the "elitism" of other schools of Buddhism (sound familiar?).

    Just a few examples, but if you're interested, you can always read more.

    I was in the local Jodo Shinshu temple some years back and I found the similarity between it and protestant Christain service to be very similar. If it wasn't for the very Buddhist alter/shrine I'd have thought I was in a Christian church.

    I was in a Chinese Mahayana temple and they had chairs lined up like pews (just like the Jodo Shinshu temple) and they had kneelers like Roman Catholic Churches do.
    Invincible_summer
  • NevermindNevermind Bitter & Hateful Veteran
    edited December 2013
    Hmm, maybe Chaz is on to something directly related to the topic. The religion of Secularism fusing with Buddhism! Oh but wait, Secular Buddhism is not a religion. :( Nevermind...
    vinlyn
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    edited December 2013
    Chaz said:



    There are those who believe that nestorian Christianity has certain influences on both Bon and Buddhism in Tibet - material culture mostly.

    There are plenty of example of fusion between Bon and Buddhism in Tibet - in fact, some people can't tell the difference between the two.

    In Christianity there are lots of example. Look at this time of the year. Christmas Trees, Yule Logs, Wreaths, feasting, gift exchange, Santa Claus, even the date, all a part of a traditional Christian Christmas, is adopted from pagan traditions that Chritianity encountered in Europe as it spread. Fusion. Purposive evolution.

    There seems to be Christian influence on Buddhist depictions of Hell. I read that before Buddhism reached Mongolia, Christianity got there first. And some of the paintings in the monasteries there show Christian influence. I'd love to see research on early Christian influence in the East (the apostle Thomas, for example, had a ministry in India, in Kashmir, where Buddhist monasteries later sprang up.)

    But re: Bon & Buddhism, Buddhist monks had to graft Buddhism onto existing traditional beliefs in order to "sell it" to local shamanists. Though one isn't supposed to corrupt the teachings of the Buddha, converting animists and shamanists to Buddhism was considered the greater good, so they did what they had to do in order to spread the Dharma.

    Buddhism scholar Giuseppe Tucci, who lived in the old Tibet, does a great job of teasing out the shamanic elements and the folk elements and Hindu tantra from Buddhism in Tibet, and showing how they blend together to create a new form of Buddhism. Very insightful. For example, Central Asian culture emphasized the importance of the soul. This lives on in many ways in Tibetan Buddhism, not the least of which is the whole reincarnation and tulku tradition. Fascinating.

    (see Tucci: Religions of Tibet. There's a companion book by another author: Religions of Mongolia)
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited December 2013
    So you're trying to say that Tibetan Buddhism is not Buddhism?

    And you're saying that Christianity is not Christianity because of Santa Clause?
    The straw man is that the quotes are proposterous.

    1) Chaz never said remotely that Buddhism was not Buddhism. That would be like saying 'sooo an onion is not an onion?' Unless this is a miscommunication of words it would be absolutely ridiculous to propose Chaz said those two quotations.

    2) He also never remotely said Christianity is not Christianity because of Santa Claus. Chad never remotely said that and moreover it is a ridiculous saying.

    Finally this
    Where did you go to school?
    Is obviously an ad hominem.
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    Chaz said:

    ...
    I was in the local Jodo Shinshu temple some years back and I found the similarity between it and protestant Christain service to be very similar. If it wasn't for the very Buddhist alter/shrine I'd have thought I was in a Christian church.

    ...

    Did you feel they were attempting to alter your thinking?

    (Revenge for Dali Lama)

    :lol:
    MaryAnneChazInvincible_summerDavid
  • ChazChaz The Remarkable Chaz Anywhere, Everywhere & Nowhere Veteran
    Nevermind said:

    Hmm, maybe Chaz is on to something directly related to the topic. The religion of Secularism fusing with Buddhism! Oh but wait, Secular Buddhism is not a religion. :( Nevermind...

    Not yet it isn't.

    So-called Secular Buddhism could very well develop into a full-blown school of Buddhism. A religion if you like. There's two major hurdles and one's for Buddhism as it stands now to recognize it as such, it will have to have a founding teacher reach enlightenment. Every other Buddhist school has that. It will also have to have some cohesive teachings that can identify it. (Kagyu has Mahamudra, Nyingma has Dzogchen, etc) It seems like "Secular" Buddhism is mainly concerned with defining itself, so for now not many will it seriously.

    If it can develop an enlightenment lineage and it's own set of teachings passed down from enlightened teachers, it will, over time, begin to exert some influence.

    Things may change as time goes on - SC may continue to devlop and it may simply end up a flash in the pan. Time will tell.
  • The reason that meaning is the nature of mind is that we have openness, clarity, and sensitivity.

    We let go of preconceived idea and open.
    Our minds are by nature clarity thus eventually the insight comes
    When the insight comes we have a feeling that is good (or bad when not come)

    This WOW is kinda cool.
  • ChazChaz The Remarkable Chaz Anywhere, Everywhere & Nowhere Veteran
    vinlyn said:

    Chaz said:

    ...
    I was in the local Jodo Shinshu temple some years back and I found the similarity between it and protestant Christain service to be very similar. If it wasn't for the very Buddhist alter/shrine I'd have thought I was in a Christian church.

    ...

    Did you feel they were attempting to alter your thinking?

    (Revenge for Dali Lama)

    :lol:
    Ha! That's a good one!

    Actually, the purpose of a shrine like that is to affect your thought process - bring more towards symbolic thought.
  • NevermindNevermind Bitter & Hateful Veteran
    Chaz said:

    Nevermind said:



    I really am misinformed,

    If you say so ....

    Christmas Trees, Yule Logs, Wreaths, feasting, gift exchange, and Santa Claus are not distinct religions, Chaz. But I am grateful to the pagans who invented feasting. Who else could have dreamt that up?
  • ChazChaz The Remarkable Chaz Anywhere, Everywhere & Nowhere Veteran
    They came from distinct, pagan religions.

    Little known factoid for ya:

    Our timing of our Christmas celebration is the same as the old Roman holiday of Saturnalia. Biggest holiday in the Roman calendar. Among other things it was marked with feating and gift exchanging.

    Sound familiar?
  • NevermindNevermind Bitter & Hateful Veteran
    Next are you going to claim that all Christians believe in Santa Clause?
    vinlyn
  • ChazChaz The Remarkable Chaz Anywhere, Everywhere & Nowhere Veteran
    Nope.

    Are you going to say that I do?
  • NevermindNevermind Bitter & Hateful Veteran
    Well, I celebrate Christmas so I must be a pagan/Christian hybrid, and I didn't even know that I belonged to that religion!
    vinlyn
  • You're a tree hugger :)
  • NevermindNevermind Bitter & Hateful Veteran
    Tree hugging is defiantly a pagan ritual of some sort. So that must mean that environmentalists are pagan hybrid somethingists.
    MaryAnne
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran
    vinlyn said:


    Turn it around. You believe in rebirth (I guess), but not God, yet you have no actual evidence for either. You must be cherry picking. :p

    No, I'm agnostic on all these questions. :p
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran
    edited December 2013
    vinlyn said:


    Yes, the suttas describe beings reborn into various realms according to their actions, ie kamma and rebirth. But don't secular Buddhists reject that stuff?...

    Why do you make us so black and white?
    I'm not the one who constantly indulges in simplistic dichotomies. And in this case it's not about being black and white, but about clarity. By definition secular Buddhists are non-religious and so they dismiss the religious aspects of Buddhism, or at least see them as irrelevant. They aren't agnostic.

    It sounds to me like you're actually an agnostic Buddhist rather than a secular Buddhist?
    Chaz
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran
    edited December 2013
    vinlyn said:


    I take it you've never picked cherries.

    I think we all do that to some extent. The point is to be clear about how and why we're doing it, and to recognise that our opinions aren't always rational and don't always need to be taken too seriously.
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran
    edited December 2013
    vinlyn said:

    Chaz said:


    Sometimes, it seems, modern Buddism is used in a way that makes it synonymous with more areligious forms. This follows along the lines that modern/areligious Buddhism is dynamic, vital and changing while religous Buddhism is static, entrenched and unyielding.

    I also wonder if it's a strategy used by secular Buddhists to try and claim the centre ground of contemporary Buddhism?
    Why do you think we have to have a strategy? Do you think we're all part of a plot? Why can't we just believe what we believe?
    If you identify yourself as a secular Buddhist then inevitably you're buying into the assumptions and beliefs of that tradition - and I can assure you that they do exist. But I'm not atall sure you are a secular Buddhist.
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran
    Chaz said:


    So-called Secular Buddhism could very well develop into a full-blown school of Buddhism. A religion if you like.

    It already is.
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran

    vinlyn said:


    Yes, the suttas describe beings reborn into various realms according to their actions, ie kamma and rebirth. But don't secular Buddhists reject that stuff?...

    Why do you make us so black and white?
    I'm not the one who constantly indulges in simplistic dichotomies. And in this case it's not about being black and white, but about clarity. By definition secular Buddhists are non-religious and so they dismiss the religious aspects of Buddhism, or at least see them as irrelevant. They aren't agnostic.

    It sounds to me like you're actually an agnostic Buddhist rather than a secular Buddhist?
    1. Where is that definition written in stone?

    2. By stating such a definition, again, you're making a concept black or white.

    3. Since you love definitions so much, here is the definition of agnostic: "a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and probably unknowable; one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god; a person who is unwilling to commit to an opinion about something". In my firm view, Buddha was an extremely wise man who developed a comprehensive perspective of the human condition. Since he was a man it is not appropriate to worship him, though one may give him homage ("special honor or respect").

    4. You seem to insist on labeling me, but how you label me is of no importance.

  • ChazChaz The Remarkable Chaz Anywhere, Everywhere & Nowhere Veteran
    vinlyn said:



    4. You seem to insist on labeling me, but how you label me is of no importance.

    Correct me if I'm wrong here, but don't you label yourself a "Secular" Buddhist?
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    edited December 2013
    Chaz said:

    vinlyn said:



    4. You seem to insist on labeling me, but how you label me is of no importance.

    Correct me if I'm wrong here, but don't you label yourself a "Secular" Buddhist?
    How I label myself is significant to me. How you label yourself is significant to you.

    How others label you or me -- at least in this setting -- is of little significance.
    riverflow
  • ChazChaz The Remarkable Chaz Anywhere, Everywhere & Nowhere Veteran
    vinlyn said:

    Chaz said:

    vinlyn said:



    4. You seem to insist on labeling me, but how you label me is of no importance.

    Correct me if I'm wrong here, but don't you label yourself a "Secular" Buddhist?
    How I label myself is significant to me. How you label yourself is significant to you.

    How others label you or me -- at least in this setting -- is of little significance.
    But haven't you referred to yourslef as a "Secular" Buddhist on this forum? If you have, you must expect that this will be significant and meaningfull to those of us reading, otherwise why mention "secular" at all, especially if definitions are likely to get confused, such as here/now?
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    There are different degrees of significance. Whatever I post on here, while I have my beliefs, isn't going to have some big effect on me or anyone else. No one here is going to become something different than they are because of something you or I post. It's just a chat that fades into the past in a few hours or days.

    riverflow
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    edited December 2013


    I'm not the one who constantly indulges in simplistic dichotomies. And in this case it's not about being black and white, but about clarity. By definition secular Buddhists are non-religious and so they dismiss the religious aspects of Buddhism, or at least see them as irrelevant. They aren't agnostic.

    It sounds to me like you're actually an agnostic Buddhist rather than a secular Buddhist?

    This is an interesting point. Actually, Stephen Batchelor describes himself as a Buddhist agnostic in his "Confession" book. He says there's no way we can know either way about rebirth. So, based on the position expounded in his book, we may conclude that Secular Buddhism actually is agnostic Buddhism.

    On the other hand, he does reject the mythology that grew up around Buddhism later, such as the miracle of the Buddha's birth, etc. And he argues that the later sutras, the ones that present the concept of Buddhanature and the True Self (among others) are Hindu-influenced. So it's arguable that he's truly agnostic. But he very clearly states regarding rebirth that "we don't know", we can't prove or disprove, which is an agnostic position.

  • HamsakaHamsaka goosewhisperer Polishing the 'just so' Veteran

    Hamsaka said:


    So, "secular Buddhism" also means "modern Buddhism of this particular time".

    But "modern Buddhism" is a meaningless term. Buddhism of this time is all modern.
    Perhaps so.

    You missed (maybe not, your post just didn't address it) the point I made about the 'saeculum' within which we unpack Buddhism. Of course 'meaningless' characterizes even this point I'm making (as well as the rest of this thread, I swear it's like an enormous weaverbird nest and will knock the whole tree over).

    It's trite and obvious to say Buddhism of this time is all modern. This lengthy nonsensical thread demonstrates more about folks finding another cup of gasoline to keep the bonfire going than a clarifying debate.

    Gassho :)

    MaryAnne
  • MaryAnneMaryAnne Veteran
    edited December 2013
    " This lengthy nonsensical thread demonstrates more about folks finding another cup of gasoline to keep the bonfire going than a clarifying debate. "

    Yep. I'm surprised the thread wasn't closed 4 pages ago. But some of us get away with doing this quite often, and some of us don't. (I'm in the latter group... always getting my hand smacked for much less...) :coffee:

    ::: watches for the ruler! ::: LOL
  • @Dakini, he may be agnostic, but he is a fine critic for those who believe. So the crux is how can he be agnostic while at the same time calling the Mahayana Hindu?

    Can I criticize Christianity and still call myself agnostic?
  • lobsterlobster Crusty Veteran
    Secular Buddhism? Religious Buddhism? Why not both? Or neither?
    Sticks and stones will break my bones
    But words will never harm me.


    . . . which is fine for children but words can perspire, expire, inspire and above all become redundant . . . or so I have heard . . .
    :wave:
This discussion has been closed.