The Other Elephant In The Room

Jeroen · January 24

Certainly when they started talking about forced resettlement of Palestinians from Gaza in Egypt, which they reportedly have talked about, they moved a big step closer to ethnic cleansing.

Steve_B · January 25

@Shoshin1 said:
I don't think those who have posted here are anti-Semitic/anti-Israel. They are expressing their concerns regarding the Israeli government's actions, which are not only making Israeli citizens and the surrounding regions unsafe but are also making Jewish people around the world unsafe.

This is of course exactly right. Commenting on the actions of those in power at the moment does not make one categorically anti semitic.

I am a Jew by birth, family name is Bernard. My sister and I were raised Jewish, and still keep some of the traditions. I am fully aware of the holocaust, the formation of Israel, the unwavering US political and military support, which at the time was clearly an appropriate honorable stance. Over the generations though, things have a way of changing.

I am horrified and disgusted by the actions of those currently in the Israeli government and military. And I am not alone. Jews all around the planet are joining an initiative called Not In Our Name, to express the perspective that we don’t condone the outrageous violence of the IDF. We’re Jewish, we’re pro-Israel, and we detest what Israel is currently inflicting upon their fellow humans.

Many people in the West were shocked when hearing about Hamas's attack and the killing of Israelis. Many supported Israel's right to retaliate. However, when Israel started to target and bomb homes, hospitals, schools, mosques, and churches, cutting off power, water, food and medical supplies, (with blatant disregard for international humanitarian laws) resulting in the deaths of thousands of innocent Palestinian civilians, including men, women, children, and babies, including the targeting of Journalists, and humanitarian workers... support for their actions waned and then shifted to the Palestinian civilian population...

Israel’s current violent actions are defended by some as not a first strike but rather a response to Palestinian violence that preceded it. And within such a tightly drawn perspective this is technically quite true, though in the big picture it is an aggravating response. The Hamas attack is defended by some as not a first strike but rather a response to Israeli violence that preceded it. Also technically true, also aggravating the situation. BOTH sides believe they are responding appropriately to violence initiated by the other side. This goes back generations, millenia. The current violence will not solve it; quite the contrary. Israel may be considered to have the “right” to retaliate, but it is an obvious step in exactly the wrong direction. What is really meant by “right?”

At this point in history, Israel has access to the most powerful weapons America can produce. Power corrupts. But what happens when Iran builds a nuke? Over the generations, things have a way of changing.

We need to be cultivating peace.

Shoshin1 · January 25

We need to be cultivating peace.

Thanks for the insightful post @Steve_B ...

When the labels such as Arab, Jew, Asian, African, European, etc, etc, are removed, what's left are human beings who support Israel's actions and human beings who don't....

Psycho-physical beings capable of generating great love and compassion or great hatred and heartlessness ....

We all have a choice ....

Shoshin1 · January 26

VI. CONCLUSION AND MEASURES TO BE ADOPTED (PARAS. 75-84)
The Court concludes on the basis of the above considerations that the conditions required by
its Statute for it to indicate provisional measures are met. It is therefore necessary, pending its final
decision, for the Court to indicate certain measures in order to protect the rights claimed by South
Africa that the Court has found to be plausible. In the present case, having considered the terms of
the provisional measures requested by South Africa and the circumstances of the case, the Court
finds that the measures to be indicated need not be identical to those requested.

The Court considers that, with regard to the situation described above, Israel must, in
accordance with its obligations under the Genocide Convention, in relation to Palestinians in Gaza,
take all measures within its power to prevent the commission of all acts within the scope of Article II
of this Convention, in particular: (a) killing members of the group; (b) causing serious bodily or
mental harm to members of the group; (c) deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life
calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; and (d) imposing measures
intended to prevent births within the group. The Court recalls that these acts fall within the scope of
Article II of the Convention when they are committed with the intent to destroy in whole or in part a
group as such. The Court further considers that Israel must ensure with immediate effect that its
military forces do not commit any of the above-described acts.

The Court is also of the view that Israel must take all measures within its power to prevent and
punish the direct and public incitement to commit genocide in relation to members of the Palestinian
group in the Gaza Strip.

The Court further considers that Israel must take immediate and effective measures to enable
the provision of urgently needed basic services and humanitarian assistance to address the adverse
conditions of life faced by Palestinians in the Gaza Strip.
Israel must also take effective measures to prevent the destruction and ensure the preservation
of evidence related to allegations of acts within the scope of Article II and Article III of the Genocide
Convention against members of the Palestinian group in the Gaza Strip.

Finally, in view of the specific provisional measures it has decided to indicate, the Court
considers that Israel must submit a report to the Court on all measures taken to give effect to this
Order within one month, as from the date of this Order. The report so provided shall then be
communicated to South Africa, which shall be given the opportunity to submit to the Court its
comments thereon.

In a nutshell...
The International Court of Justice (ICJ) has decided that, before making a final decision, certain temporary measures need to be taken to protect the rights claimed by South Africa. The Court believes that, based on the information provided, there is a plausible case that Israel may be violating its obligations under the Genocide Convention in relation to Palestinians in Gaza. Therefore, the ICJ has outlined specific actions that Israel must take immediately. These actions include preventing acts that could lead to the destruction of the Palestinian group, ensuring its military forces do not commit harmful acts, preventing and punishing public incitement to commit genocide, providing basic services and humanitarian assistance to Palestinians, and preserving evidence related to allegations of genocide. Israel is also required to submit a report to the ICJ within one month, detailing the measures it has taken, and South Africa will have the opportunity to comment on this report.

Shoshin1 · January 27

Naledi Pandor South African Foreign Minister
Press conference

In answering one of the reporter's question, regarding relationship between South Africa and Israel... the SA FM said:

""I don't think it's a matter of South Africa and Israel. The real issue here is that all your questions are about Israel, but the actual concern is the people—the people of Palestine who are being killed every day, the people of Palestine who are sleeping in the cold, and the people of Palestine who are denied food, water, and energy. That is the critical issue that all of us should focus on. On that note, we stand with the people of Palestine, and our message to them is: never give up hope. South Africa got over the apartheid oppression; they will overcome."

Shoshin1 · January 28

It's interesting how this South African Zionist living in Israel sees the world

And how this Holocaust survivor 'understands' the world

Shoshin1 · January 28

The day after the ICJ court rulings this happens....

UK and US halt aid to UN agency over Israeli allegations staff helped Hamas on Oct 7

It's a sad day for humanity when powerful nations openly express their contempt for the Palestinian people by reiterating their unwavering support for ethnic cleansing and genocide, by withholding one of the very things needed to prevent it...humanitarian aid....

At first I thought, what very childish and spoiled brattish behaviour on display from so-called world leaders...

Why are they behaving in such an unskillful and unwholesome way? What kind of world order do these people in power want?

I have tried on numerous occasions to mentally put myself in their position to see where they are coming from, in order to generate and maintain some compassion for them...But it seems to be a place so dark, I find it unfathomable...

Perhaps they have conditioned their minds in such a way to be cold, callus, and calculating, which means they will stop at nothing to get what they want, and they are impervious to consequences and punishment.

This darkness goes beyond the threshold of my mind's ability to understand...

When it comes to upholding human rights, I lost faith in these world leaders long ago, but I still have faith in humanity...

Vastmind · January 28

@Shoshin1 ….. my respects to you for all the UN/news postings and keeping this thread going.
✌🏻

Shoshin1 · January 28

Thanks @Vastmind

"Human rights are moral principles or norms for certain standards of human behaviour and are regularly protected in municipal and international law. They are commonly understood as inalienable, fundamental rights "to which a person is inherently entitled simply because she or he is a human being"
~Rene Cassin~

I never thought I would ever see such openly blatant disregard for human life...

Shoshin1 · January 29

Clare Daly & Mick Wellace Irish members of the EU
The Irish MEPs who call out EU's role in genocide
WARNING A BIT OF SWEARING TOWARDS THE END

The world needs more straight talking down to earth politicians like these...

marcitko · January 29

A month or two ago I wrote to the Israeli Embassy in my country asking how I might send a bottle of water and a box of biscuits to Gaza. I wrote that a friend told me that this is forbidden by the Israeli Government but that I don't believe that a pro-western liberal-democracy would ban such deliveries so am looking for instructions and clarifications. It was tongue-in-cheek and basically trolling and they never replied. I wanted to start a social-media movement to send such packages en masse, for the Israeli post-office to then have to deal with large quantities of such shipments and basically shame them into thinking about the issue of humanitarian deliveries, but never had the energy to continue.

Shoshin1 · January 29

This two year old After Skool video popped up on my YouTube feed....Interesting.....

"Menticide"

Menticide refers to the systematic and intentional manipulation **or control of an individual's mind, **often through psychological and emotional means. It involves the use of various tactics, such as propaganda, misinformation, coercion, and psychological pressure, to undermine a person's beliefs, values, and sense of self. The term is often associated with efforts to manipulate or control large groups of people, especially in the context of authoritarian regimes or oppressive systems. Menticide aims to break down independent thinking and foster unquestioning obedience or conformity to a particular ideology or authority.
Fear can be a significant component of menticide. The use of fear as a tool is a common strategy to manipulate and control individuals or groups mentally. Authoritarian regimes, cults, and oppressive systems often employ fear tactics to instill anxiety, uncertainty, and a sense of threat in people's minds. Fear can be used to coerce obedience, suppress dissent, and manipulate behavior. It can create a psychological environment where individuals feel compelled to conform to a particular ideology or authority in order to avoid negative consequences or harm. In the context of menticide, fear can be a powerful tool to weaken individual autonomy and foster compliance with the desired narrative or belief system.

Watch from the beginning or start at 9 minutes in....

person · January 30

I feel like we're all living in a menticide of one version or another. I feel like all those things apply to pretty much every information environment, where there's a cohort who attempt to enforce conformity of view and compliance. The only real differences are the madlib insertion of a specific ideology and whether the authority comes from the top, bottom or middle.

"Society can and does execute its own mandates: and if it issues wrong mandates instead of right, or any mandates at all in things with which it ought not to meddle, it practises a social tyranny more formidable than many kinds of political oppression, since, though not usually upheld by such extreme penalties, it leaves fewer means of escape, penetrating much more deeply into the details of life, and enslaving the soul itself. Protection, therefore, against the tyranny of the magistrate is not enough: there needs protection also against the tyranny of the prevailing opinion and feeling; against the tendency of society to impose, by other means than civil penalties, its own ideas and practices as rules of conduct on those who dissent from them; to fetter the development, and, if possible, prevent the formation, of any individuality not in harmony with its ways, and compel all characters to fashion themselves upon the model of its own."
~ John Stuart Mill

Shoshin1 · January 30

I would say that there are those in the West who are living in very similar, or the same versions, where their countries mainstream government controlled news broadcasts, feed them the same mind poison when it comes to what is happening in Gaza...

The following is quite obvious .....

Propaganda: Governments may use mass media to disseminate information or messages that serve their interests. This can involve selective reporting, misinformation, or biased framing of events.

Censorship: Controlling the flow of information by restricting or suppressing certain content can be a powerful tool for governments. This can include censorship of media, the internet, or social media platforms.

Surveillance: Governments may engage in extensive surveillance of their citizens, monitoring communication, online activities, and movements. This can have a chilling effect on dissent and limit freedom of expression.

Nationalism and Patriotism: Appeals to national pride and patriotism can be used to create a sense of unity and discourage dissent. Leaders may use symbols, rhetoric, or events to foster a strong sense of national identity.

Diversionary Tactics: Governments may divert attention from internal issues or controversies by creating external conflicts or crises. This can shift public focus away from domestic problems and unite the population against a common external threat.

State-sponsored Disinformation: Some governments engage in spreading false information to manipulate public opinion, both domestically and internationally. This can be done through social media, news outlets, or other communication channels.

Use of State-Owned Media: Governments may control or heavily influence media outlets to ensure favorable coverage and suppress dissenting voices.

Restrictions on Activism and Protests: Governments may enact laws or use force to suppress political activism, protests, or dissenting voices, limiting the ability of citizens to express their grievances.

It would seem much of the above is already happening now ...

....

Jeroen · January 30

This is why I love people like Terence McKenna, Alan Watts and Osho, they are all rebels and prolific speakers on topics like “why is culture not your friend.” It’s a much-needed counterpoint to the control of mass media.

I’m a fan of the After Skool videos, but this one I thought was a little alarmist.

Shoshin1 · January 30

@Jeroen said:

I’m a fan of the After Skool videos, but this one I thought was a little alarmist.

@Jeroen but one does not have to look far to see cause for concern...

There is a lot of misinformation being spread by Western politicians about what is happening in Gaza. Information designed to confuse the viewer and listener. Journalists and interviewers are often reprimanded by the company they work for if they ask challenging questions, which makes politicians squirm because they don't have an answer.
Additionally, there are the outright lies and a denial or dismissal of factual evidence presented to them. Furthermore, politicians often avoid giving a simple yes or no answer to questions, more often than not sidestepping the issues. Then deliberately make nonsensical statements, creating confusion for many listeners and viewers, the aim of this is to leave the viewer and listener in a state of confusion,..

When an interviewer has just been told an obvious porky (lie) by a politician, I would love for the interviewer to say to the politician on camera..."You've got something running down your chin!" and when the politician asks "What is it?", the interviewer says " Bullshit" ....Now that would really make my day ....

Shoshin1 · January 31

Another war crime caught on camera...

lobster · January 31

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeland_for_the_Jewish_people

meanwhile ... what have Buddhists been up to?

In Tibet the improvements in health care, transport, education and opportunities for the former serfs of Lamas are largely ignored by (Guess who?)
In Sri Lanka the Buddhist supported government has tried to 'reeducate', kill, undermine its considerable Hindu population.

You know about these and maybe other politicised Buddhist actions?
... or maybe we should just "blah blah blah", as Greta Thunberg might say ...
Where else are the elephants taking up room?

https://www.lionsroar.com/eight-views-on-the-practice-of-politics/

Shoshin1 · January 31

The Lions roar link with the different view points, was an interesting read....thanks @lobster

All the view points revolve around politics and societal issues, more often than not from Buddhist perspectives . highlighting the interconnectedness of individuals and societies, emphasising the need for a Dharmatic (just made that word up) and dramatic approaches to political and social challenges., and the limitations of conventional politics, (which for the most part is prone to corruption) which is in urgent need of major overhaul/revamp, and the importance of individual and collective action in creating positive change.

In other words

lobster · February 1

thanks @lobster

You are welcome. Like you, my main practice at the moment is Tantric ... with added mayhem magick ...

Personally I believe 'The Holly Land' has had enough turmoil from the Abrahamic Trio (Judaism, Christianity and Islam) Time for the Dharmic religions to offer retreats in Is real, Pally Stein etc.

Little Tibet here we come ... Mission Impossible?

Maybe. Maybe not.
Maybe a Jain Mental hospital for Politicians would be a start?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jainism

Shoshin1 · February 2

Interesting interview with Chris Gunness ex spokesperson for UNRWA ( United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East )

Shoshin1 · February 2

Western officials in protest over Israel Gaza policy

Over 800 serving officials from the US and Europe have signed a "transatlantic statement," expressing concerns that their governments' policies on the Israel-Gaza war may constitute grave violations of international law. The statement suggests complicity in one of the worst human catastrophes of this century and emphasizes the sidelining of expert advice. The signatories, including civil servants from the US, EU, UK, France, and Germany, argue that Israel's military operations in Gaza have resulted in preventable civilian deaths and deliberate blocking of aid, possibly contributing to war crimes, ethnic cleansing, or genocide. Dissent within key Western allies of Israel is highlighted, with officials claiming their concerns have been dismissed, and there is a call for accountability in diplomatic support for Israel.

Shoshin1 · February 4

Interesting videos from Breaking Points

and Neutrality Studies

Shoshin1 · February 4

A chilling account from reconstructive surgeon Dr Ghassan Abu-Sittah who's been working in Gaza (NOT FOR THE FAINTHEARTED) ....
It brings home the truth of what is still happening in Gaza and what ...

"I think we're at a junction here. In this war, there are so many red lines that have been crossed, and I think ordinary people recognize that. If we don't apply international law now, regardless of the perpetrator or victim, all of the consensus that had been reached after the Second World War to govern the conduct of wars—whether it's international humanitarian law or even the Convention on Genocide that has just come out in the International Court of Justice—then the next war will be much worse. It will be acceptable to target hospitals; it would be acceptable to kill 10,000 children in the first 100 days of the war, or all of these red lines that have been crossed. We know that, unfortunately, humanity has a way of starting where it ended in the last war, and any taboos that were broken become the norm and incorporated into military strategy. I think this is one of the things that's bringing people out in droves"..
-Dr Ghassan Abu-Sittah

My heart goes out to all those compassionate humanitarians caring for the sick, the wounded and the dying in Gaza....

Shoshin1 · February 6

Gabor Maté, Naomi Klein, and Simone Zimmerman....Interesting discussion relating to the documentary "Israelism" ...

Shoshin1 · February 6

Thus have I heard...

Children learn a lot from their parents, not just through direct teaching but also by observing and imitating their actions and attitudes.

For example, if parents exhibit bullying behaviour, to others, the child may come to see such behaviour as acceptable or even normal.

This can influence their own behaviour and attitudes, leading them to adopt similar patterns of bullying.

Not all children who have parents who bully others will succumb to this type of conditioning, however some are more susceptible and this kind of behaviour takes root...

The US, government the UK government (the parents who bully others) and the Israeli government (the child who follows suit )....

Shoshin1 · February 7

4 News seems to be one of few Western mainstream media outlets which I've come across who is brave enough to provide actually unfiltered coverage of the situation in Gaza .... Unfiltered meaning, not having been filtered through the Israeli Occupation Force (IOF) ...

And this report from AJ on the increase Israeli settler attacks in the West bank

Shoshin1 · February 9

He makes some interesting points....

Personally I don't think Jeremy Corbyn is anti Semitic, however some of the UK labour party members could well be, just as some of the Tory party members could well be.

Shoshin1 · February 9

@Shoshin1 said:

When an interviewer has just been told an obvious porky (lie) by a politician, I would love for the interviewer to say to the politician on camera..."You've got something running down your chin!" and when the politician asks "What is it?", the interviewer says " Bullshit" ....Now that would really make my day ....

I got my wish ( well almost but not quite, anyhow it will do)...The Green party spokesperson called out the National government's Transport minister ....

Shoshin1 · February 9

Double Down News

Shoshin1 · February 10

Senator Bernie Sanders moving speech to Congress...

Congress is about to send $14 billion in military aid to Netanyahu’s right-wing government, as he starves thousands of Palestinian children and is threatening a ground invasion of Rafah. This is UNACCEPTABLE.

Will his plea fall on deaf ears ?

Shoshin1 · February 10

Israel's Allies PANIC In Desperate Effort To Deflect Blame

Shoshin1 · February 12

Senator Bernie Sanders

"How does it happen that despite waging a horrific war, causing massive suffering, and ignoring the wishes of the President of the United States and the world community, the US Congress is about to send another $10 billion of unrestricted military aid to Israel with no strings attached? It is beyond comprehension that Congress would reward Netanyahu, even as he ignores everything the President of the United States says. Netanyahu leads the most right-wing government in Israel's history, a man who has dedicated his political career to killing the prospects of a two-state solution. Yet, this bill will give him a blank check paid for by the American taxpayer."

Shoshin1 · February 13

I must admit, considering the tragic loss of innocent Palestinian lives at the hands of the IOF, it will be difficult to overlook the role of Western leaders who provided support to Israel while turning a blind eye to the actions of the Israeli government. Their complicity in these events raises questions of accountability.

Unfortunately, it seems unlikely that many, if any, will face consequences for their actions. Instead, they may quietly retire, benefiting from their connections and wealth, while hoping that time will diminish the memory of their involvement.

Shoshin1 · February 14

Irish Politician Clare Daly Slams EU, US For Backing Genocide In Gaza

Breaking Point: Israel BOMBS Medics Rescuing 6 Year Old Girl

Shoshin1 · February 14

Finally, this nauseating episode, encompassing everything that has transpired in the last 128 days, has answered a question that I have always been haunted by when studying the atrocities of the past: How did so many people, who regarded themselves as humane, moderate, and normal, become willingly complicit in self-evident evil—either by not speaking out or by actively cheering it on? Well, I think of the badly decomposing remains of Hind and her family, and the incinerated remains of the paramedics sent to save her , and there's the answer.

It is frankly nauseating that I have to do this thought experiment - because that's how much Palestinian life has been cheapened.

Shoshin1 · February 15

Shoshin1 · February 16

He makes some interesting observations
"Why Gaza May Be The End Of The West"

Lest we forget the evil which is now unfolding before our very eyes and many of our Western governments (including the government of NZ) are complicit in these atrocities ...

All that is happening in Gaza right now ...Can we really trust that our governments have our best interest at heart ?

Shoshin1 · February 17

A Global Order That Works for Everyone': UN Chief at the Munich Security Conference 2024

“Our world is facing existential challenges, but the global community is more fragmented and divided than at any time during the past 75 years,” he said, highlighting the need for “a global order that works for everyone”.

“The situation in Gaza is an appalling indictment of the deadlock in global relations,” he said. “The level of death and destruction is shocking in itself. The war is also spilling over borders across the region and affecting global trade.”

“I have repeatedly called for the immediate and unconditional release of all hostages and a humanitarian ceasefire. That is the only way to massively scale up aid delivery in Gaza,”

Shoshin1 · February 17

Palestine protesters storm Downing Street for UK complicity in Rafah massacre

Over a week ago I sent an email to our Ministry of Foreign Affairs asking what proof did the Israeli government provide the NZ government which shows that the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine ( UNRWA) workers had participated in the attack on October the 7th which has lead to the government withhold the much needed humanitarian aid money for Gaza...
No reply as yet....

Shoshin1 · February 18

Interesting...
Where's My State? BLACK/JEWISH CLASH on One State Solution (w/ Rep. Dean Phillips)

Is a one state solution a solution, or the source of the problem? Why not adopt America's pluralistic attitude toward religion? Is it true that Jewish people are unique among religions or ethnic groups in not getting a state? Does a group need a state to be safe? If so, what does that mean for Black Americans, Hindus, Sikhs or Athiests -- none of whom have states but who number much greater than the Jewish population? This was a spicy debate cut short by circumstances. What do you think?

SuraShine · February 18

@Shoshin1 said:
Over a week ago I sent an email to our Ministry of Foreign Affairs asking what proof did the Israeli government provide the NZ government which shows that the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine ( UNRWA) workers had participated in the attack on October the 7th which has lead to the government withhold the much needed humanitarian aid money for Gaza...
No reply as yet....

I guess all Israeli kids lie then. Considering the hostages also provided evidence.

I understand the need for proof - but I don't see the AFP independently verifying numbers from the Hamas reports. All I ever see in articles are the following words:
"according to an AFP tally of Israeli official figures."
AND
"according to the territory's Hamas-run health ministry."

I'm willing to stand corrected if wrong...

Shoshin1 · February 19

@SuraShine

Because Israel refused to allow independent experts access to the hostages and denied access to independent international organizations, many of the allegations put forward by Israel raise questions about the authenticity of some of their claims.

Does the alleged involvement of a few staff members out of thousands justify the withholding of much-needed humanitarian aid and Israel's continuous bombardment and killing of innocent men, women, children, and babies? This includes destroying hospitals, mosques, and schools, as well as targeting health workers and withholding vital supplies...

With 1200 Israelis killed, some by 'friendly fire' from IOF troops, and a staggering 30,000 Palestinians killed so far, along with homes, livelihoods, and buildings destroyed, people being dehumanised and treated like animals... one might question whether this constitutes a proportional response from a country that claims to have one of 'the most moral armies in the world'

The ICJ believes that South Africa's genocide case against Israel is 'plausible,' and the documented evidence is mounting. There are hundreds, if not thousands, of videos and photo images documenting this, not to mention genocidal incitement by Israeli government officials.

SuraShine · February 19

@Shoshin1 said:

Because Israel refused to allow independent experts access to the hostages and denied access to independent international organizations, many of the allegations put forward by Israel raise questions about the authenticity of some of their claims.

I'll have to disagree with that, and that's ok.

Does the alleged involvement of a few staff members out of thousands justify the withholding of much-needed humanitarian aid and Israel's continuous bombardment and killing of innocent men, women, children, and babies? This includes destroying hospitals, mosques, and schools, as well as targeting health workers and withholding vital supplies...

Nothing justifies deaths on either side.

With 1200 Israelis killed, some by 'friendly fire' from IOF troops, and a staggering 30,000 Palestinians killed so far, along with homes, livelihoods, and buildings destroyed, people being dehumanised and treated like animals... one might question whether this constitutes a proportional response from a country that claims to have one of 'the most moral armies in the world'

I'm with you on proportionate response questions. I'm not with you on 30,000 deaths. I simply cannot accept that based on the fact that proof is only demanded from one side. Regardless of the numbers, this war could have been totally avoided if both sides weren't so focused on "winning" and cared more about their citizens.

The ICJ believes that South Africa's genocide case against Israel is 'plausible,' and the documented evidence is mounting. There are hundreds, if not thousands, of videos and photo images documenting this, not to mention genocidal incitement by Israeli government officials.

We'll see how that plays out. I'm skeptical of both sides if truth be told, but I don't expect anyone who hates Jews and Israel** to change their mind even if they have evidence provided on a silver platter with a signed letter stating independent proof. Just like I don't expect anyone waiting on the remaining hostages to be rescued would give a toss what Netanyahu promises. In fact, most Israelis don't agree with him, something the media conveniently ignores and the Jew haters don't want to come out. shrugs It's completely fucked for everyone involved.

**Not saying anyone here is a Jew or Israel hater.

person · February 19

@Shoshin1 said:
Interesting...
Where's My State? BLACK/JEWISH CLASH on One State Solution (w/ Rep. Dean Phillips)

Is a one state solution a solution, or the source of the problem? Why not adopt America's pluralistic attitude toward religion? Is it true that Jewish people are unique among religions or ethnic groups in not getting a state? Does a group need a state to be safe? If so, what does that mean for Black Americans, Hindus, Sikhs or Athiests -- none of whom have states but who number much greater than the Jewish population? This was a spicy debate cut short by circumstances. What do you think?

Dean Phillips is my congressman and I like Briahna as a progressive who is willing to platform and talk to people with different views than hers. I see her more on The Hill or when she comes on to other people's podcasts.

To me the crux of the disagreement here boiled down to whether the state of Israel is legitimate or not. Its where Briahna retreated to when pressed and Dean repeatedly talked about Israel being under constant attack since its founding. I guess my question in that context is whether undoing the state of Israel is a legitimate goal? To what extent can that "original sin" be undone?

SuraShine · February 19

@person said:

To me the crux of the disagreement here boiled down to whether the state of Israel is legitimate or not. Its where Briahna retreated to when pressed and Dean repeatedly talked about Israel being under constant attack since its founding. I guess my question in that context is whether undoing the state of Israel is a legitimate goal? To what extent can that "original sin" be undone?

Legitimate in its re-establishment? Well in terms of the Palestinians there at the time, I'd say no since Britain was ruling them and "voted" in their place. But you can also blame Syria, Jordan, Egypt, Lebanon and the others who also said basically "Yes we'll allow it but Israel can keep the Palestinians cause we don't want them"

When it comes to blaming people for the Palestinians "colonisation" (I disagree given both sides are indigenous to the Levant and both should be able to live on the land freely) you can't just blame Israel. Egypt built a border (and they're reinforcing it as I type) and have repeatedly refused to allow any Palestinians in (this has changed during the current war). So either the others should have flatly said No during the re-establishment of Israel or been better neighbours.

Hindsight is always 20/20 though.

To what extent can that "original sin" be undone?

I really don't think this wording is appropriate. MENA Jews wanting to return to the land they were forcibly expelled from previously and displaced elsewhere isn't a "sin". That's like saying the Australian Indigenous and American and Canadian Indigenous peoples are "sinning" by wanting their lands back too.

Shoshin1 · February 20

Riyad Mansour, (the Permanent Observer of Palestine to the UN) Speech at the ICJ

“A finding from this distinguished court that the occupation is illegal and drawing the legal consequences from this determination would contribute to bringing it to an immediate end, paving the way to just and lasting peace,”

Shoshin1 · February 21

@Surshine said:
but I don't expect anyone who hates Jews and Israel** to change their mind even if they have evidence provided on a silver platter with a signed letter stating independent proof.

This may well be true, but your above comment can also apply to those who hate Palestinians and Palestine too @Surshine....

All the evidence is there in plain sight and much of it documented by independent experts which shows the ongoing crimes that the Israeli state (the government of Israel and the IOF) have and are still committing...

But Western governments who are Pro Israeli government, plus pro Israel supporters, and most of the mainstream Western media, choose to ignore (in some cases completely ignore) or try to discredit the evidence, put forward by independent experts...

In a nutshell both the actions of Hamas on October 7th and those of the IOF and the Israeli government are in Buddhist terms deemed unskillful ....

No doubt there are many Innocent Israelis who are suffering, with fears of rocket attacks and the possibility of all out war coming closer to home...It must be terrifying for many...

However, the ongoing suffering inflicted upon the innocent men, women children and babies in Gaza by the IOF is I feel, more than just unskilful...it's downright diabolical...

SuraShine · February 21

@Shoshin1 said:

This may well be true, but your above comment can also apply to those who hate Palestinians and Palestine too @Surshine....

Undoubtedly

In a nutshell both the actions of Hamas on October 7th and those of the IOF and the Israeli government are in Buddhist terms deemed unskillful ....

100% agree

No doubt there are many Innocent Israelis who are suffering, with fears of rocket attacks and the possibility of all out war coming closer to home...It must be terrifying for many...

My family included.

I try to apply the Eightfold Noble Path thinking to it especially because of that. But I think a lot of people (not necessarily here, but I can't claim to know how people think away from the keyboard) don't even consider that there ARE Jews and quite a few of them, who don't agree with Israel's actions. After all Netanyahu's approval rate in Israel is 14% and dropping.

My personal view is that in order to try and find a truly fair and lasting solution is to remember there are far more people on either side who DON'T want this situation and by tarring each side's people with the same brush is unskillful and not helpful. So I think we agree mostly.

Shoshin1 · February 21

ICJ opens historic hearings into Israel’s occupation of Palestinian territories

19 Feb 2024
The International Court of Justice (ICJ) in The Hague on Monday opens a week of hearings on the legal consequences of Israel's occupation of Palestinian territories, with more than 50 states due to address the judges.

Palestinian Foreign Minister Riyad al-Maliki will speak first in the legal proceedings.

In 2022, the UN General Assembly asked the court for an advisory, or non-binding, opinion on the occupation.

The hearings will be held until February 26, after that the judges are expected to take several months to deliberate before issuing an advisory opinion.

Amongst countries scheduled to participate in the hearings are the United States - Israel's strongest backer, China, Russia, South Africa and Egypt. Israel will not participate, although it has sent written observations

The evidence given against Israel's illegal occupation of Palestinian territories is quite damning...

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