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The Truth about Blacks vs Whites & George Floyd Protests.

13

Comments

  • howhow Veteran Veteran

    The way I remembered it..

    He was in a scuffle with two cops on the ground. They were sharing round house punches. He looked angry and off balance. He grabbed the cops tazer out of his holster belt as he got off one of them. He ran a short distance in a not particularly coordinated way with the cop following 15 - 20 ft behind him. He was shot in the back.

    Tazers are common and often carried as a defensive weapon in a purse. Police themselves call them a defensive weapon. Most police are actually intentionally tazered as a part of their training.

  • BunksBunks Australia Veteran

    @Walker said:
    Maybe @Bunks
    Or maybe not. What if he got away with that taser and used it on somebody else?

    How did they allow him to take it from them?

    Watch the video - it shows how he got it. It was a scuffle on the ground.

    As @how said, surely there is another way of immobilising someone with a taser from close range than shooting to kill.

    how
  • WalkerWalker Veteran Veteran

    Yep, it's a job I sure as hell wouldn't want to do.

    I haven't watched the video yet, so I wasn't aware of the transpired events.

    Taser shocks are usually non-lethal, but I remember that Polish man dying after being tased at the airport a few years back, so it's something you wouldn't want someone who's potentially violent and/or impaired running around with.

    Shooting him in the back though... yeah, agreed that shouldn't have been how to handle the situation.

    Bunkshow
  • howhow Veteran Veteran

    Tasers can certainly kill...usually when folks are elderly, have pre existing heart conditions, are pregnant, are on drugs...which covers something like 1/3 of the American population or like Robert Dziekański (the polish guy you mentioned) because he was tasered 4 - 5 times in a row and then ignored on the ground after he lost consciousness.

    Often police (you'd think they'd be trained) in the heat of a combative situation forget that instead of limiting the voltage to 15 seconds or less..keep holding down the trigger which for some Tasers keeps supplying voltage until it becomes deadly.

    Bunks
  • bartbart New
    edited June 2020

    Sorry again, I meant> @Shoshin said:

    It would seem that the topic of racism, stirs up strong emotions on both sides of the spectrum ....

    We often find it hard to face our selves warts & all ....and more often than not look for ways to justify our beliefs...and how often the yes buts enter the discuss/debates around racism...with things like they(another minority) suffer just as much as them(the minority group in question) perhaps it's a way to try to water down what's going on by using so-call counter arguments...in an attempt to lessen the mental hurt felt...

    Yes talking about racism is uncomfortable, and admitting( even to ourselves) that we 'all' in one form or another hold racist views, be in a subtle or not so subtle ways...is no easy task...

    Perhaps some may leave this discussion feeling a little uncomfortable/frustrated...
    I know I will, but I also know that it's up to me to deal with it, ie, get to the root of what is making me uncomfortable & at times frustrated...no doubt this will exposed my attachment to certain beliefs, even if I'm not always conscious of holding them...

    Thanks you all for your comments ... <3

    Stay well stay safe & be mindful... <3

    Hi,thank you thoughtfuly responding to the video I posted. I actually hate this topic period but everywhere I go on buddhist forums and magazine sights all they do is all day long is talk about race. I cannot avoid it. So as someone whos family was impacted by the Holocaust and inssessantly getting the crap kicked out me for being Jewish. (Context) that was in the 70's, I have a few things to say about this.

    I will make future posts regarding what I think about the whole progressive intersectional movement and how it succesfully promotes racism.

    Be peaceful, be happy.

  • bartbart New
    edited June 2020

    @person said:
    @bart I'll agree with you that there are lots of data points that partially undermine and add important nuance to the current growing narrative around race. I don't think that should lead us to be hard hearted toward the injustices that POC have faced through the generations and continue to face and the ongoing impact that has on people. Especially as a Buddhist, which since you're here I'll assume you are.

    If I'm getting where you're coming from I'd say you think there is more to racial disparities than white people being racist towards black people. That personal responsibility and the decisions people make matter quite a bit too. Personally I somewhat agree, I think history is really important here and probably isn't being properly taken into account in your world view. POC didn't dig the hole they find themselves in, they were put there and for a long time, even continuing today in smaller ways, were put back down anytime they actually started to dig themselves out. Rip black people away from their homes, strip them of their traditions and family ties, beat them down and utterly dehumanize them for generations. Then when they get legal freedom keep the boot on their necks for a few more generations robbing them of the chance to build wealth and opportunities for their children and expect them to not be at least a little angry and demoralized. Not to mention Indigenous populations.

    IMO Candace Owens just parrots conservative talking points, there isn't much substance to her. If you are interested in black voices that embrace a more color blind view of race I'd recommend the regular conversations Glenn Loury and John McWhorter have, I also think Coleman Hughes is unbelievably brilliant and articulate. They're doing a decent job of disagreeing without being particularly disagreeable.

    Hi, thanks for responding. I was just throwing that out there. I don't think of myself as conservative per say. I also do not think that everything for every individual is personal responsbilty. However it is a fact that the back community in America suffers from the highest instances of teenage pregnancies. That is a bigger problem for them than any white racism. It would explain why there is more violence in the black communities than in the other communitites. You actually do not need to look much farther than that.

    I sighted an example on my earlier post of Nigerians and their success in the US inspite of "Systemic Racism". It has been sighted that Nigerians have strong family values.

    Shoshin
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited June 2020

    @bart: Grammar Queen at your service:

    I don't think of myself as conservative per say.

    it's 'per se ' It's Latin for 'in itself'.

    I cited an example on my earlier post of Nigerians and their success in the US in spite of "Systemic Racism". It has been cited that Nigerians have strong family values.

    "in spite" - is 2 words.

    'Sighted' is 'viewed'. 'Cited' is 'quoted, or stated.

    (This takes nothing away from your views and observations, let's make that quite clear.)

    You're welcome. ;)

    bart
  • ShoshinShoshin No one in particular Nowhere Special Veteran

    @bart said:

    Hi,thank you thoughtfuly responding to the video I posted. I actually hate this topic period but everywhere I go on buddhist forums and magazine sights all they do is all day long is talk about race. I cannot avoid it. So as someone whos family was impacted by the Holocaust and inssessantly getting the crap kicked out me for being Jewish. (Context) that was in the 70's, I have a few things to say about this. I will make future posts regarding what I think about the whole progressive intersectional movement and how it succesfully promotes racism. Be peaceful, be happy.

    Hi, thanks for responding. I was just throwing that out there. I don't think of myself as conservative per say. I also do not think that everything for every individual is personal responsbilty.However it is a fact that the back community in America suffers from the highest instances of teenage pregnancies. That is a bigger problem for them than any white racism. It would explain why there is more violence in the black communities than in the other communitites. You actually do not need to look much farther than that.

    Hmm...It would seem that the case you are making is to try to blame the victims of a racist system, by disregarding the history which has lead to this....which sadly is somewhat ironic considering your own family history^^

    Robin DiAngelo has noticed that white people are sensationally, histrionically bad at discussing racism. Like waves on sand, their reactions form predictable patterns: they will insist that they “were taught to treat everyone the same,” that they are “color-blind,” that they “don’t care if you are pink, purple, or polka-dotted.” They will point to friends and family members of color, a history of civil-rights activism, or a more “salient” issue, such as class or gender. They will shout and bluster. They will cry. In 2011,DiAngelo coined the term “white fragility” to describe the disbelieving defensiveness that white people exhibit when their ideas about race and racism are challenged—and particularly when they feel implicated in white supremacy

    If the topic of race and racism make you feel extremely uncomfortable ( in your own words I actually hate this topic period but everywhere I go on buddhist forums and magazine sights all they do is all day long is talk about race. I cannot avoid it ) why comment on it...why not avoid it altogether ?

    JasonSuraShine
  • personperson Don't believe everything you think the liminal space Veteran

    @bart said:

    @person said:
    @bart I'll agree with you that there are lots of data points that partially undermine and add important nuance to the current growing narrative around race. I don't think that should lead us to be hard hearted toward the injustices that POC have faced through the generations and continue to face and the ongoing impact that has on people. Especially as a Buddhist, which since you're here I'll assume you are.

    If I'm getting where you're coming from I'd say you think there is more to racial disparities than white people being racist towards black people. That personal responsibility and the decisions people make matter quite a bit too. Personally I somewhat agree, I think history is really important here and probably isn't being properly taken into account in your world view. POC didn't dig the hole they find themselves in, they were put there and for a long time, even continuing today in smaller ways, were put back down anytime they actually started to dig themselves out. Rip black people away from their homes, strip them of their traditions and family ties, beat them down and utterly dehumanize them for generations. Then when they get legal freedom keep the boot on their necks for a few more generations robbing them of the chance to build wealth and opportunities for their children and expect them to not be at least a little angry and demoralized. Not to mention Indigenous populations.

    IMO Candace Owens just parrots conservative talking points, there isn't much substance to her. If you are interested in black voices that embrace a more color blind view of race I'd recommend the regular conversations Glenn Loury and John McWhorter have, I also think Coleman Hughes is unbelievably brilliant and articulate. They're doing a decent job of disagreeing without being particularly disagreeable.

    Hi, thanks for responding. I was just throwing that out there. I don't think of myself as conservative per say. I also do not think that everything for every individual is personal responsbilty. However it is a fact that the back community in America suffers from the highest instances of teenage pregnancies. That is a bigger problem for them than any white racism. It would explain why there is more violence in the black communities than in the other communitites. You actually do not need to look much farther than that.

    I sighted an example on my earlier post of Nigerians and their success in the US inspite of "Systemic Racism". It has been sighted that Nigerians have strong family values.

    I agree that the current progressive narrative on race ignores the role of personal responsibility and culture in determining disparate outcomes. Take the disparities between French Americans and Russian Americans. French Americans make 79 cents on the dollar compared to Russian Americans. Race doesn't play a factor here, and runs contrary to a potential anti Soviet bias, it clearly shows that there are other important factors at play in disparate outcomes between groups other than prejudice and inherited privilege.

    That said the conservative narrative tends to disregard the role generations of oppression and dehumanization have played in creating current conditions. If you want people to learn how to fish rather than relying on others to give them fish you need to actually teach them rather than simply shaming or blaming them and consider their need to be able to eat while learning.

    David
  • bartbart New
    edited June 2020

    @Shoshin said: Hmm...It would seem that the case you are making is to try to blame the victims of a racist system, by disregarding the history which has lead to this....which sadly is somewhat ironic considering your own family history^^

    My family history and that of other Jews are a case in point. There used to be a sign on businesses Jews and Irish need not apply. Inspite of this Jews climed up the social latter fairly quickly. Way faster than the Irish. This in spite of the fact that that most Jews in the US came from Eastern Europe and were basically peasants.

    I will say this much. The Irish had community advocates and advocate polticians. The Jews did not go that route. In fact The Irish with their ethnic advocacy groups were the slowest of all of the white ethnicities to integrate. The Irish with their ethnic advocacy politics had the hardest time integrating.

    Blacks have gone for community advocacy as have the Hispanics. They are not doing so hot. Asians who did not go the community advocacy route are doing ok.

    We all have histories. You spoke about slavery. I do not know if you or many other Black individuals have ever actually met someone who was a slave. I have, they were not Black. I have met former slaves from the Third Reich concentration camp network, the Soviet Gulag network and the Khmer Rouge network. Trust me when I tell you this, these people would have killed to get a comparatively cushy assignment on a southern plantation. I am not saying that American slaves had a cushy life. However comparitively to other slave situations they did. They were muchbetter off thanlet us say slaves captured by Muslums. You should know that Muslum slaery was much more extensive than European slavery. The reason why you do not find many blacks in the Arab world is that their slavery practices were genocidal.

  • DavidDavid A human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First Nations Veteran
    edited June 2020

    @Shoshin
    Why do you feel it is ok to use terms like "white fragility" for people who find the term "white people" offensive and that do not wish to be categorized with white supremacists?

    What should I call people like you and Robin DiAngelo that promote white guilt under the pretense of racial equality? I probably wouldn't be as generous.

    Maybe, just maybe we should try treating people like actual people and stop being so disrespectful.

    Too radical?

    WalkerShoshin
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited June 2020

    Post edited. Link removed.
    My choice, not up for discussion.

    Thanks.

    WalkerDavid
  • VastmindVastmind Memphis, TN Veteran
    edited June 2020

    ^^^ That guy is a huge tRump supporter and speaks on the conservative scenes..( along with the other post ,Candace Owens) so I’m not surprised by his thoughts. I’m not a fan of the republican party’s occasional token black person. They’re usually misguided about what the party’s intentions are towards them. Or they know and they’re just trying to go along to get along. Just my thoughts... on his thoughts.

  • JasonJason God Emperor Arrakis Moderator
    edited June 2020

    Love all the racism, victim blaming, oppression olympics, and completely denial of the issues black people in America have faced for the past 400 years in this thread. To say it disappoints me is an understatement.

    VastmindShoshinlobster
  • JasonJason God Emperor Arrakis Moderator

    Counterpoint for all the Candace Owens fans (language warning).

    Shoshin
  • @Vastmind said:
    ^^^ That guy is a huge tRump supporter and speaks on the conservative scenes.. so I’m not surprised by his thoughts. I’m not a fan of the republican party’s occasional token black person. They’re usually misguided about what the party’s intentions are towards them. Or they know and they’re just trying to go along to get along. Just my thoughts... on his thoughts.

    Are you trying to say that a black Trump Supporter does not really speak for black people? The Democratic party is astounding how they hijacked the civil rights movement and how they use and manipulate the black community for their own nonsense. Yes they are the sole custodians of the oppressed. With that task they love to define for black people what authentic blackness is. Like Joe Biden who recently said that a black person who votes for Trump is not really black. This is the second time in 24 hrs on this thread that I have encountered a statement about blacks parroting conservative talking points. If a black is conservative he is a parrot. I have heard of coons and Uncle Toms but the term parrot is new to me.

  • JasonJason God Emperor Arrakis Moderator
    edited June 2020

    I honestly don't understand how anyone can take even a cursory look at the history of black people in the US and the things they've had to overcome each generation by a people and a government that stole them from their land, treated them like animals and used them as slaves, constructed a racist narrative about them to justify it that poisons people's minds to this day, criminalized and vilified their skin colour, and once they were finally freed, turned around to segregate them, lynch them, prevent them from getting loans or homes in certain areas, and constructed laws that disproportionately affected them, courts that disproportionately sentence them, and a police force that obviously targets them for attention and the use of violence and say there's not really a problem that needs to be addressed. Clear statistics, mind you, that the ripples from this history still persist and in many ways are still a present reality. Police violence. Jail time. Wealth disparities. Health disparities. Educational disparities. Employment disparities. The list goes on. And people want to say that racism still doesn't exist in this system? And they want to say that black people just need to take personal responsibility? Yeah, that's easy for people to say living in a system that wasn't purposefully designed with and built specifically upon your oppression and subjugation. Literal black bodies formed the basis of our national wealth at one point and fuelled burgeoning global, capitalists markets. And if you think that's easy to just overcome with personal responsibility or explain it away by saying that other people have bad histories too, your heart is blind/closed off to their suffering and that upsets me more than words can express. I'm all for working towards a post-racial world and for weakening our mental clinging to/reification of labels that don't have inherent existence. But I'll be damned if people want me to ignore the reality that's staring everyone in America in the face.

    JeroenShoshinfedericalobster
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited June 2020

    @Vastmind said:
    ^^^ That guy is a huge tRump supporter and speaks on the conservative scenes..( along with the other post ,Candace Owens) so I’m not surprised by his thoughts. I’m not a fan of the republican party’s occasional token black person. They’re usually misguided about what the party’s intentions are towards them. Or they know and they’re just trying to go along to get along. Just my thoughts... on his thoughts.

    I'm so sorry if I caused offence to you @Vastmind. I had no idea of his political preferences, and no idea he was a notable voice of any kind. So I apologise if I have posted something that offends you.

    Both my bridesmaids were of a different ethnicity to me. One was Trinidadian, the other from Pakistan. I hope you know me well enough by now to know I am not a racist person, and that I have nothing but respect for all members here, regardless of provenance.

    if you want me to take it down, I happily will. I would rather remove something that causes offence, than be the source of that offence.

    ETA: the thing that prompted me to post this was a vitriolic tirade from someone on Fb, who accused me of covert and not-so-covert racism, and suggested I was in collusion with every white person that ever did a black person wrong. My original post was public, and I had no idea who this person was. Then another person posted the video above into my feed, in an attempt to comfort me in the face of the person who basically told me he hoped I died a violent death at the hands of an African American. I deleted the whole thread.

  • VastmindVastmind Memphis, TN Veteran
    edited June 2020

    @federica ... no need to apologize or remove. I’m not necessarily personally offended by an opinion or view that’s different than mine. If that’s who you wanted to use to make your point... it’s your choice.

    My interactions with you over the years have been nothing but respectful, helpful, and super nice!! You’re still my Aunt Fede....even when we disagree on something. Xoxo

    Bunks
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    @Vastmind said:
    @federica ... no need to apologize or remove. I’m not necessarily personally offended by an opinion or view that’s different than mine. If that’s who you wanted to use to make your point... it’s your choice.
    My interactions with you over the years have been nothing but respectful, helpful, and super nice!! You can still be my Aunt Fede....even when we disagree on something. Xoxo

    I can't see anything here you've written that I personally disagree with. On the contrary.
    And as you have left the choice to me, I thank you for that, and have made it.

  • JeroenJeroen Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter Netherlands Veteran

    @federica I would love to say your post surprised me but I’m afraid I’ve grown cynical in middle age and am fairly aware of the loudmouthed uneducated masses who occasionally lose their cool.

    @jason I agree with you, black Americans have had a lot to cope with over the centuries.

    federica
  • ShoshinShoshin No one in particular Nowhere Special Veteran
    edited June 2020

    @David said:

    Maybe, just maybe we should try treating people like actual people and stop being so disrespectful.

    Too radical?

    Thank you @David I think I see where you are coming from^^ I totally agree with your sentiment, and for the most part, most people do try to treat each other as people....some just find it hard (call it one's "conditioning" neurons that fire together wire together) to treat other people on equal terms...

    It's not my intention to make others feel any guilt...On a personal level I only feel guilty when I have something to feel guilty about, I can't blame my feelings on others...But in saying this, in the past I have taken some comfort when doing so....

    When it comes to being colourblind of racial differences , it would seem that our ongoing conditioning, and the history that backs up this conditioning, have a habit of getting in the way...

    Our brains will never be "colourblind'' no matter how thick one's rose coloured glasses are...

    This is not to say one can't change one's 'ingrained' attitude towards those of different skin colour shade/pigmentation... and begin to treat others as we would have them treat ourselves....

    From my limited understanding, Dharma practice is designed to change the way we look at things...shedding light on the path between dark extremes.

    On an ultimate level everything is empty, however on a conventional level (the level we are most familiar with) this emptiness tends to become full of mind junk...hence why we more often than not are prone to suffer/struggle....

    I should point out that not for one minute do I think that 'all' white people are white supremacists...(I would have a pretty hard time if I did )...But I do think that 'all people' regardless of ethnicity/skin colour have an ingrain bias for people who look like them (some have a tendency to exhibit this bias, more than others)...

    Vastmind
  • DavidDavid A human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First Nations Veteran

    @federica said:

    Post edited. Link removed.
    My choice, not up for discussion.

    Thanks.

    I wasn't going to say anything but am happy you saw through his crap.

  • DavidDavid A human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First Nations Veteran
    edited June 2020

    @Shoshin said:

    @David said:

    Maybe, just maybe we should try treating people like actual people and stop being so disrespectful.

    Too radical?

    Thank you @David I think I see where you are coming from^^ I totally agree with your sentiment, and for the most part, most people do try to treat each other as people....some just find it hard (call it one's "conditioning" neurons that fire together wire together) to treat other people on equal terms...

    It's not my intention to make others feel any guilt...On a personal level I only feel guilty when I have something to feel guilty about, I can't blame my feelings on others...But in saying this, in the past I have taken some comfort when doing so....

    When it comes to being colourblind of racial differences , it would seem that our ongoing conditioning, and the history that backs up this conditioning, have a habit of getting in the way...

    Our brains will never be "colourblind'' no matter how thick one's rose coloured glasses are...

    This is not to say one can't change one's 'ingrained' attitude towards those of different skin colour shade/pigmentation... and begin to treat others as we would have them treat ourselves....

    From my limited understanding, Dharma practice is designed to change the way we look at things...shedding light on the path between dark extremes.

    On an ultimate level everything is empty, however on a conventional level (the level we are most familiar with) this emptiness tends to become full of mind junk...hence why we more often than not are prone to suffer/struggle....

    I should point out that not for one minute do I think that 'all' white people are white supremacists...(I would have a pretty hard time if I did )...But I do think that 'all people' regardless of ethnicity/skin colour have an ingrain bias for people who look like them (some have a tendency to exhibit this bias, more than others)...

    Sorry I had to put it like that. We've discussed many matters in the past and I know you didn't mean to offend me but I didn't know how else to get my point across.

    We don't use the term Hinayana as a point of respect and we do use black as a term of respect but I ask not to be called "white" and I am basically laughed at. If you were to peruse my back posts I think you'd see that I have always taken this stance.

    I mean, look at the title of your thread even. Blacks vs. Whites?

    I know you don't think I am a white supremacist because of my skin but you still separate me from the rest and feel I owe more because of my skin. Every single one of us shares a human responsibility and my share is no greater or less than yours unless you have actually hurt or spread false information in regards to racial tensions. That goes for absolutely every one of you reading this no matter what colour or shade your skin happens to be.

    No offense, lol.

    I saw a title of a movie or documentary the other day called "Dear White People" and immediately thought it would be better recieved if it was called "From your black family" or friends or whatever. At least by myself.

    As for the personal bias, we draw towards those we better relate to but we are all related and kinda look alike, don't you think?

    I think tightening our circle of compassion is counter productive.

    Shoshin
  • JasonJason God Emperor Arrakis Moderator

    From my POV, it's not even about individuals, although they can be racist or whatnot, but more about systemic barriers and inequalities that give certain groups advantages and lessen opportunities for others in a way that's clearly observable, measurable, etc. And in this particular case, we're talking about barriers and inequalities that are clearly discriminatory, dehumanizing, and oftentimes fatal.

    VastmindShoshinBunksSuraShine
  • JasonJason God Emperor Arrakis Moderator
    edited June 2020

    @Jason said:
    From my POV, it's not even about individuals, although they can be racist or whatnot, but more about systemic barriers and inequalities that give certain groups advantages and lessen opportunities for others in a way that's clearly observable, measurable, etc. And in this particular case, we're talking about barriers and inequalities that are clearly discriminatory, dehumanizing, and oftentimes fatal.

    In other words, even if many people today aren't prejudice or racist and see beyond a person's colour, these built in barriers and inequalities still exert their influence and manifest themselves in the forms of disparities, inequalities, and violence that we've been discussing. So in conjunction with changing our views and perceptions, we also have to change material social relations, institutions, and systems to match because those things have been built into the very fabric of our society and how that society functions. That said, studies have found that there is also a lot of unconscious racial and gender biases in people in the US, so there is a lot of work to be done on the personal level as well.

  • DavidDavid A human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First Nations Veteran
    edited June 2020

    @Jason said:

    @Jason said:
    From my POV, it's not even about individuals, although they can be racist or whatnot, but more about systemic barriers and inequalities that give certain groups advantages and lessen opportunities for others in a way that's clearly observable, measurable, etc. And in this particular case, we're talking about barriers and inequalities that are clearly discriminatory, dehumanizing, and oftentimes fatal.

    In other words, even if many people today aren't prejudice or racist and see beyond a person's colour, these built in barriers and inequalities still exert their influence and manifest themselves in the forms of disparities, inequalities, and violence that we've been discussing. So in conjunction with changing our views and perceptions, we also have to change material social relations, institutions, and systems to match because those things have been built into the very fabric of our society and how that society functions. That said, studies have found that there is also a lot of unconscious racial and gender biases in people in the US, so there is a lot of work to be done on the personal level as well.

    Even though I'm looking at the global level, I agree. Institutional racism exists whether we like it or not so we do have to speak out against it and change it brick by brick, mindset by mindset and yes, individual by individual.

    That means coming at this dangerous mindset at another angle.

    Together, not divided.

    ShoshinBunks
  • JasonJason God Emperor Arrakis Moderator

    @David said:

    @Jason said:

    @Jason said:
    From my POV, it's not even about individuals, although they can be racist or whatnot, but more about systemic barriers and inequalities that give certain groups advantages and lessen opportunities for others in a way that's clearly observable, measurable, etc. And in this particular case, we're talking about barriers and inequalities that are clearly discriminatory, dehumanizing, and oftentimes fatal.

    In other words, even if many people today aren't prejudice or racist and see beyond a person's colour, these built in barriers and inequalities still exert their influence and manifest themselves in the forms of disparities, inequalities, and violence that we've been discussing. So in conjunction with changing our views and perceptions, we also have to change material social relations, institutions, and systems to match because those things have been built into the very fabric of our society and how that society functions. That said, studies have found that there is also a lot of unconscious racial and gender biases in people in the US, so there is a lot of work to be done on the personal level as well.

    Even though I'm looking at the global level, I agree. Institutional racism exists whether we like it or not so we do have to speak out against it and change it brick by brick.

    That means coming at this dangerous mindset at another angle.

    Together, not divided.

    I agree. Although I also believe that people aren't completely homogeneous and that there should also be room for expressions of differences. In addition, I think that groups who share a common culture, identity, experience, etc. sometimes a have better ideas about their challenges they face and what they need than others, especially if those challenges go unacknowledged and needs go unmet. Here I'm specifically thinking of things like the BLM movement. And think for the most part, we're all starting to look at these issues more together than separate. In the past, a lot of people of lighter skin tone tended to not support BLM, but now I think we're all starting to get on board with confronting the realities of racism and things like police violence.

    ShoshinVastmind
  • BunksBunks Australia Veteran

    @David said:

    I mean, look at the title of your thread even. Blacks vs. Whites?

    In @Shoshin defence, this was the name of the original video that started this whole thread. And the guy in the video gave an explanation of why he used these terms.

    ShoshinJasonDavid
  • personperson Don't believe everything you think the liminal space Veteran

    Dan Harris has been having guests on during the past couple weeks talking about race, mostly focusing on whiteness and the internal work people need to do to overcome implicit biases, personally I really liked Sebene Selassie. One of his guests though equated rationality and objectivity with whiteness as well as curiosity towards racial questions, then another did the same equating them with white supremacy. From what I understand because these values come out of the European Enlightenment.

    So being someone who appreciates a rational and objective view of the world and is naturally very curious and I actually like and value this sort of approach to the world, apparently I am a white supremacist. I don't know if that makes someone like Neil DeGrasse Tyson a white supremacist too, maybe you need to be white as well.

    You know, I try to reduce my own negative biases and do "the work" as they say, but then I come across stuff like this that negates my whole world view by trying to leverage white guilt so I will change everything about me so I'm not a racist and it really demotivates me to care at all. I imagine I'm not alone.

    I don't stop caring about the issue because part of my white supremacist world view tells me that most everyone has something about what they think and feel that is a part of the whole of what is true and right and some things that miss the mark.

    SuraShine
  • VastmindVastmind Memphis, TN Veteran
    edited June 2020

    Oh please! Why would you need to feel guilty?

    Demotivates you?
    It’s not other people’s responsibility to motivate you to act and reflect and take part in things you find important.

    personShoshin
  • personperson Don't believe everything you think the liminal space Veteran

    @Vastmind said:
    Oh please! Why would you need to feel guilty?
    It’s not other people’s responsibility to motivate you to act and reflect and take part in this.

    Thanks, personally I don't feel guilty. It comes across as an effort to leverage white people's concerns about being called racist to compel them to change things they may not otherwise think should be changed.

  • VastmindVastmind Memphis, TN Veteran
    edited June 2020

    @person
    Leverage what?

    Same kinda treatment by the police! Can we start there?

    That’s not more. It’s equal.
    Right now they are just beating the shit out of people on camera! .killing blacks on camera!! Over some bullshit! .........didn’t the Supreme Court refuse to hear the immunity issue yesterday?

    JasonShoshin
  • DavidDavid A human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First Nations Veteran

    @Jason said:

    @David said:

    @Jason said:

    @Jason said:
    From my POV, it's not even about individuals, although they can be racist or whatnot, but more about systemic barriers and inequalities that give certain groups advantages and lessen opportunities for others in a way that's clearly observable, measurable, etc. And in this particular case, we're talking about barriers and inequalities that are clearly discriminatory, dehumanizing, and oftentimes fatal.

    In other words, even if many people today aren't prejudice or racist and see beyond a person's colour, these built in barriers and inequalities still exert their influence and manifest themselves in the forms of disparities, inequalities, and violence that we've been discussing. So in conjunction with changing our views and perceptions, we also have to change material social relations, institutions, and systems to match because those things have been built into the very fabric of our society and how that society functions. That said, studies have found that there is also a lot of unconscious racial and gender biases in people in the US, so there is a lot of work to be done on the personal level as well.

    Even though I'm looking at the global level, I agree. Institutional racism exists whether we like it or not so we do have to speak out against it and change it brick by brick.

    That means coming at this dangerous mindset at another angle.

    Together, not divided.

    I agree. Although I also believe that people aren't completely homogeneous and that there should also be room for expressions of differences.

    For sure. Like I said in the other thread, learning about another culture is learning another side of us in my view.

    In addition, I think that groups who share a common culture, identity, experience, etc. sometimes a have better ideas about their challenges they face and what they need than others, especially if those challenges go unacknowledged and needs go unmet. Here I'm specifically thinking of things like the BLM movement. And think for the most part, we're all starting to look at these issues more together than separate. In the past, a lot of people of lighter skin tone tended to not support BLM, but now I think we're all starting to get on board with confronting the realities of racism and things like police violence.

    The exclusivity of the name kind of alienated many different nationalities at first too. Not just caucasians although some of us were the most annoying. I saw signs that said WLM and I just felt embarrassed to be human.

    @Jason, I just wanted to share on a personal note that it always bothers me a bit when we disagree on forum because I respect your work and the respect others respectfully accord you.

    That doesn't mean I will stop sharing or debating points with you or anything. I just wanted you to be aware that I don't just like to argue.

  • WalkerWalker Veteran Veteran

    @David said:

    I saw a title of a movie or documentary the other day called "Dear White People" and immediately thought it would be better recieved if it was called "From your black family" or friends or whatever. At least by myself.

    I've seen that show advertised on NetFlix as well. I also did a double take when I saw the title.

  • DavidDavid A human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First Nations Veteran
    edited June 2020

    @Walker said:

    @David said:

    I saw a title of a movie or documentary the other day called "Dear White People" and immediately thought it would be better recieved if it was called "From your black family" or friends or whatever. At least by myself.

    I've seen that show advertised on NetFlix as well. I also did a double take when I saw the title.

    I was like "oh well, they're not talking to me so... scroll, scroll, scroll".
    I know their hearts are probably in the right place but their aim is way off.

    Walker
  • personperson Don't believe everything you think the liminal space Veteran

    @Vastmind said:
    @person
    Leverage what?
    As in...make level. Implying something was below?

    Anyway....

    Equal rights..... Same kinda treatment by the police! Can we start there?

    That’s not more. It’s equal.
    Right now they are just beating the shit out of people on camera! .killing blacks on camera!! Over some bullshit! .........didn’t the Supreme Court refuse to hear the immunity issue yesterday?

    Leverage, as in use. Use white people's fear of being called racist to give up on rationality, objectivity or whatever else can be lumped in with the values of the Enlightenment, I didn't specifically hear democracy mentioned though. Sometimes it seems like there is some other agenda that we're not aware of because I don't see what those things have to do with race, I pay attention to plenty of black people who display those qualities.

    I'm not referring to the current situation around police and race. I'm not totally up on the latest about qualified immunity and the Supreme Court. From what I read early on there were something like 9 cases that they could choose to hear. If they've refused to take up the issue altogether that would be really unbelievable considering the current climate and that they just voted in favor of employment protection for LGBTQ people.

  • JasonJason God Emperor Arrakis Moderator
    edited June 2020

    @person said:
    Dan Harris has been having guests on during the past couple weeks talking about race, mostly focusing on whiteness and the internal work people need to do to overcome implicit biases, personally I really liked Sebene Selassie. One of his guests though equated rationality and objectivity with whiteness as well as curiosity towards racial questions, then another did the same equating them with white supremacy. From what I understand because these values come out of the European Enlightenment.

    So being someone who appreciates a rational and objective view of the world and is naturally very curious and I actually like and value this sort of approach to the world, apparently I am a white supremacist. I don't know if that makes someone like Neil DeGrasse Tyson a white supremacist too, maybe you need to be white as well.

    You know, I try to reduce my own negative biases and do "the work" as they say, but then I come across stuff like this that negates my whole world view by trying to leverage white guilt so I will change everything about me so I'm not a racist and it really demotivates me to care at all. I imagine I'm not alone.

    I don't stop caring about the issue because part of my white supremacist world view tells me that most everyone has something about what they think and feel that is a part of the whole of what is true and right and some things that miss the mark.

    I don't think you're getting the point of some of these kinds of critiques. For example, re: the Enlightenment. It's a matter of history that, besides the many great things it did, it also helped to give rise to modern racism. And that has influenced much of Western society founded upon Enlightenment ideals, both good and bad. White supremacy was a part of that, and so it's a part of our culture and society and in some ways our thinking. Of course that doesn't mean every white person is a white supremacist, but it is a part of our past and present. From an interesting article on this I read recently:

    'This paradox between Enlightenment liberalism and racial domination was well-recognized from the beginning. “You Americans make a great Clamour upon every little imaginary infringement of what you take to be your Liberties; and yet there are no People upon Earth such Enemies to Liberty, such absolute Tyrants, where you have the Opportunity, as you yourselves are,” jeered one English interlocutor to Benjamin Franklin in 1764.'

    And this is one area where I think Buddhism can really help by having us explore our own subconscious and root out any areas of our own minds that have been suffused with racial biases and fears born out of greed, aversion, and ignorance. Because as studies have shown, those biases can affect or infect everyone in that society (I don't have the links on hand, but one was about how women objectify women in the same way as men, likely due to the prevalence of sexism and patriarchy in our society; and another about how black officers viewed black suspects more negatively than white ones and kill black suspects at similar rates as white officers, likely due to the prevalence of institutionalized racism.)

    VastmindShoshin
  • VastmindVastmind Memphis, TN Veteran
    edited June 2020

    @person

    Ok, I hear you...

    If there is another agenda... I don’t know about it..I don’t know what that says, hahaha

    PS... I’m ok with democracy...

    person
  • JasonJason God Emperor Arrakis Moderator

    @Vastmind said:
    @person

    Ok, I hear you...

    If there is another agenda... I don’t know about it..I don’t know what that says, hahaha

    PS... I’m ok with democracy...

    As am I.

  • JasonJason God Emperor Arrakis Moderator
    edited June 2020

    @David said:
    @Jason, I just wanted to share on a personal note that it always bothers me a bit when we disagree on forum because I respect your work and the respect others respectfully accord you.

    That doesn't mean I will stop sharing or debating points with you or anything. I just wanted you to be aware that I don't just like to argue.

    Same. I actually enjoy our discussions. And I think you often make good points even if we aren't always on the same page.

  • personperson Don't believe everything you think the liminal space Veteran

    @Jason said:

    @person said:
    Dan Harris has been having guests on during the past couple weeks talking about race, mostly focusing on whiteness and the internal work people need to do to overcome implicit biases, personally I really liked Sebene Selassie. One of his guests though equated rationality and objectivity with whiteness as well as curiosity towards racial questions, then another did the same equating them with white supremacy. From what I understand because these values come out of the European Enlightenment.

    So being someone who appreciates a rational and objective view of the world and is naturally very curious and I actually like and value this sort of approach to the world, apparently I am a white supremacist. I don't know if that makes someone like Neil DeGrasse Tyson a white supremacist too, maybe you need to be white as well.

    You know, I try to reduce my own negative biases and do "the work" as they say, but then I come across stuff like this that negates my whole world view by trying to leverage white guilt so I will change everything about me so I'm not a racist and it really demotivates me to care at all. I imagine I'm not alone.

    I don't stop caring about the issue because part of my white supremacist world view tells me that most everyone has something about what they think and feel that is a part of the whole of what is true and right and some things that miss the mark.

    I don't think you're getting the point of some of these kinds of critiques. For example, re: the Enlightenment. It's a matter of history that, besides the many great things it did, it also helped to give rise to modern racism. And that has influenced much of Western society founded upon Enlightenment ideals, both good and bad. White supremacy was a part of that, and so it's a part of our culture and society and in some ways our thinking. Of course that doesn't mean every white person is a white supremacist, but it is a part of our past and present. From an interesting article on this I read recently:

    'This paradox between Enlightenment liberalism and racial domination was well-recognized from the beginning. “You Americans make a great Clamour upon every little imaginary infringement of what you take to be your Liberties; and yet there are no People upon Earth such Enemies to Liberty, such absolute Tyrants, where you have the Opportunity, as you yourselves are,” jeered one English interlocutor to Benjamin Franklin in 1764.'

    And this is one area where I think Buddhism can really help by having us explore our own subconscious and root out any areas of our own minds that have been suffused with racial biases and fears born out of greed, aversion, and ignorance. Because as studies have shown, those biases can affect of infect everyone in that society (I don't have the links on hand, but one was about how women objectify women in the same way as men, likely due to the prevalence of sexism and patriarchy in our society; and another about how black officers viewed black suspects more negatively than white ones and kill black suspects at similar rates as white officers, likely due to the prevalence of institutionalized racism.)

    Well, I'm just going mainly off what two people have said and they way they said it came across as those qualities are racist, because of a sort of guilt by association I guess?

    In general I have an a la cart approach to views and values. I don't take anything whole hog. And I think it is possible to change and improve on things rather than scrapping it altogether and starting over. There are risks of losing important, hard earned ideas, they aren't guaranteed to be carried over.

    I think we have sufficiently different approaches to the world that I don't know that we'll ever agree. Many times I've listened to and read information and data you've provided and still come to very different conclusions about possible solutions.

  • JasonJason God Emperor Arrakis Moderator

    @person said:

    @Jason said:

    @person said:
    Dan Harris has been having guests on during the past couple weeks talking about race, mostly focusing on whiteness and the internal work people need to do to overcome implicit biases, personally I really liked Sebene Selassie. One of his guests though equated rationality and objectivity with whiteness as well as curiosity towards racial questions, then another did the same equating them with white supremacy. From what I understand because these values come out of the European Enlightenment.

    So being someone who appreciates a rational and objective view of the world and is naturally very curious and I actually like and value this sort of approach to the world, apparently I am a white supremacist. I don't know if that makes someone like Neil DeGrasse Tyson a white supremacist too, maybe you need to be white as well.

    You know, I try to reduce my own negative biases and do "the work" as they say, but then I come across stuff like this that negates my whole world view by trying to leverage white guilt so I will change everything about me so I'm not a racist and it really demotivates me to care at all. I imagine I'm not alone.

    I don't stop caring about the issue because part of my white supremacist world view tells me that most everyone has something about what they think and feel that is a part of the whole of what is true and right and some things that miss the mark.

    I don't think you're getting the point of some of these kinds of critiques. For example, re: the Enlightenment. It's a matter of history that, besides the many great things it did, it also helped to give rise to modern racism. And that has influenced much of Western society founded upon Enlightenment ideals, both good and bad. White supremacy was a part of that, and so it's a part of our culture and society and in some ways our thinking. Of course that doesn't mean every white person is a white supremacist, but it is a part of our past and present. From an interesting article on this I read recently:

    'This paradox between Enlightenment liberalism and racial domination was well-recognized from the beginning. “You Americans make a great Clamour upon every little imaginary infringement of what you take to be your Liberties; and yet there are no People upon Earth such Enemies to Liberty, such absolute Tyrants, where you have the Opportunity, as you yourselves are,” jeered one English interlocutor to Benjamin Franklin in 1764.'

    And this is one area where I think Buddhism can really help by having us explore our own subconscious and root out any areas of our own minds that have been suffused with racial biases and fears born out of greed, aversion, and ignorance. Because as studies have shown, those biases can affect of infect everyone in that society (I don't have the links on hand, but one was about how women objectify women in the same way as men, likely due to the prevalence of sexism and patriarchy in our society; and another about how black officers viewed black suspects more negatively than white ones and kill black suspects at similar rates as white officers, likely due to the prevalence of institutionalized racism.)

    Well, I'm just going mainly off what two people have said and they way they said it came across as those qualities are racist, because of a sort of guilt by association I guess?

    In general I have an a la cart approach to views and values. I don't take anything whole hog. And I think it is possible to change and improve on things rather than scrapping it altogether and starting over. There are risks of losing important, hard earned ideas, they aren't guaranteed to be carried over.

    I think we have sufficiently different approaches to the world that I don't know that we'll ever agree. Many times I've listened to and read information and data you've provided and still come to very different conclusions about possible solutions.

    That's fine. We don't always have to agree. And in this case, I'm not sure that we even disagree all that much. At least, I never said everything associated with the Enlightenment was bad and had to be done away with. Just some of it.

  • BunksBunks Australia Veteran

    It's certainly a topic that people are (quite rightly) very passionate about....

    Shoshin
  • ShoshinShoshin No one in particular Nowhere Special Veteran
    edited June 2020

    That's so true @Bunks ...

    Perhaps it's to do with our implicit bias....which as Buddhist practitioners we are all trying to overcome...Hence why we practice...

  • Kotishka
  • Anyone remember about National Brotherhood Week.

  • personperson Don't believe everything you think the liminal space Veteran

    @bart said:
    Anyone remember about National Brotherhood Week.

    There are many ways to interpret the same thing. It isn't clear to me what point you are trying to make.

    David
This discussion has been closed.